286: What’s a Good Herb for…? 🤔

Do your friends ask you, “what’s a good herb for…” IBS, or PMS, or fibromyalgia, or whatever is bugging them? If you’ve ever struggled to answer such a request, you’re not alone. It’s not just about the difficulty of the pathology, though – it’s also about the complexity of the person, and the variability between people.

Everyone thinks they can ask “what’s a good herb for IBS” and that you should have the answer. (Oops, you might even be thinking about an answer right now!) The question to ask right alongside such a thought is this: is that answer appropriate for the person asking? Remember, every body is different!

As herbalists, we need a lot more information than just the name of the problem.

One of our favorite mottoes around here is: “people don’t take the names of herbs”. It means that you’re not giving a good answer if a person asks “what’s a good herb for migraines” and you respond “feverfew”. You’ve left out tons of important details: form, dose, timing, duration, formulation… the list goes on.

The other side of the equation would be “people don’t take herbs for the names of their symptoms”, or their discomforts, or their diagnoses. There are no “herbs for IBS” in the abstract, or in every individual case.

Examples make this point most clearly, so this week’s episode of the Holistic Herbalism Podcast is us talking through five different examples of people asking for help with health problems. We describe how we would break those problems down so that we can figure out what the right answer is for them, specifically – not for “someone”, generally.

What would we ask first to get a foothold on the issue? What would we observe, and ask the client to observe, as we work to figure out the information we need? How would we construct a protocol and a set of health experiments that will actually help them? Listen in to hear us talk through the process in several different cases.

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Episode Transcript

Katja (00:14):
Hi, I’m Katja. And I’m here at Commonwealth Holistic Herbalism in Boston, Massachusetts. Okay. Tell me if you have ever had this experience. Somebody comes up to you and says what’s a good herb for IBS? And they just think that you will tell them the magical answer that is going to make their IBS go away. Okay. Now, right now as I said that, are you thinking about herbs that you would recommend? You might be, because you might know some herbs that can be helpful for some people having some kinds of IBS. But here’s the thing. Is that answer appropriate for the person who’s asking the question? Every body is different. And that’s what makes being an herbalist actually, in my mind, I think it’s harder than being a doctor. Because we always are having to think not just of what’s going on for this person, but also what is the personalized situation that this person is existing in right now? And how does that impact what herbs I choose so that I can come up with an effective solution for this specific person in this specific moment. Which will not be the same solution that I would come up with for a different person in a different situation still having trouble with IBS, right?

(01:39):
Okay. So, if that problem has ever happened to you, then this is the episode you’ve been waiting for. Recently, Ryn and I were interviewed. And as part of that interview some people had submitted some really personal health issues, but they were formulated just like this. Just like what’s a good herb for IBS? And they were expecting that we would answer with the solution that was going to help them, which of course we could not do. But instead what we did was we used each one of those questions as a model to explain how do you answer. Ultimately you need an answer to the question, right? You can’t just be like oh sorry, that’s complicated, good luck, and walk away. You do ultimately need an answer to the question. Okay, so how do we get from that question is not specific enough to I now have everything I need and I’m ready to make a suggestion? That’s what this episode is about. That middle section of what questions do we ask? How are we going to break the problem down? How do we think about what’s important for this person that might be different than some other person? What is the specific situation here? What things do we need to take into consideration? All of that so that we can make a good recommendation.

(03:08):
So, before I launch into that, I have two things to tell you. The first is it is still July of 2026 as I am recording this. And if it is still July of 2026 as you are listening to this, then you can still use code CATNIP to get 20% off all of our courses and programs. Listen, if you have been listening to the podcast for any amount of time, basically I am telling you, you will love our courses. The best way to support the podcast is to enroll in our courses. And when you do that, you not only get tons and buckets of information. You also get direct access to us. You can hang out with us live twice a week and ask questions. You can write us as many questions as you want every single day as you’re working through the coursework. We answer them every night. You can hang out with us in the student community. And if you don’t know how to get the answer that you want, you can just straight out email us.

(04:11):
Okay. Well, you can email us anytime. It’s info@commonwealthherbs.com. We will answer you. But really I think now is the time. Now is the time to enroll. And now with code CATNIP you could do it for 20% off. So do that. If you’re not sure what course to enroll in… If you’re not sure what course to enroll in, but this episode is really fun for you, honestly, I would say you’re ready for the Community Herbalist program. Jump right in. This is your sign. This is your sign. So I will put the link for that below. But if you aren’t sure where you want to start, use that email address, info@commonwealthherbs.com. Tell me what you are interested in. Tell me if you have studied anywhere else before, and we’ll work together to find exactly what you need to continue your growth. Okay.

(05:11):
The other thing I need to say before we start this episode, before we launch into all of the answers that you’re waiting for is our reclaimer. So, here we go. Ryn and I are not doctors. We are herbalists and holistic health educators. The ideas discussed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice. No state or federal authority licenses herbalists in the United States, so these discussions are for educational purposes only. I want to remind you that good health does not mean the same thing for every person. Good health doesn’t actually exist as an objective standard. It’s influenced by your individual needs, your experiences, your goals, and lots of other factors. So, keep in mind that we are not at any time attempting to present a single, dogmatic, right way that everyone should adhere to because every body is different. So, the things that we’re talking about may or may not apply directly to you. But we hope that they will give you some good information to think about and some ideas to research and experiment with further.

(06:18):
Finding your way to better health is both your right and your own personal responsibility. Which does not mean that you are alone on the journey, and it does not mean that you are to blame for your current state of health. What it does mean is that the final decision when you are considering any course of action, whether it’s discussed on the internet or prescribed by a physician, it’s always your choice to make. And that means that it’s important for you to be presented with enough information to understand what your options are so that you can make an actual informed choice. So, whoever you are working with as a health practitioner, make sure that you advocate to get the information that you need so that you can make a good decision. All right. Well, having said all that, let’s launch into the interview.

The Problem With the Question: What Herb Can I Take For This Problem?

Ryn (07:07):
Now, there were a number of questions that came in that were essentially, what herb can I take for this problem? So, kind of like a personal health question. Or if it was turned in the direction of somebody else, what can I give this person for their health problem? And these are not ones that we’re going to answer directly. Not in the way that you might have been hoping. But don’t worry. We’ve got a reason for it.

Katja (07:30):
Yeah.

Ryn (07:30):
And we’re about to tell you.

Katja (07:31):
So, okay. Whenever you go on the internet, you’re going to find questions like this. What herb is good for edema? Or what is good for chronic constipation? Or how can I improve gallbladder symptoms? If you have ever been on the internet, you have seen these questions out there. And then you will see a lot of people offering answers to these questions. And often the answers are just like the name of an herb or the names of a few herbs with no further instructions, no context, just the names of the herbs. And because you can see this everywhere on the internet, it seems really normal. Like oh, this must be what I’m supposed to do to get some answers, right?

Ryn (08:20):
This is the way people answer questions. This is the kind of answer you need when you have a question like that.

Katja (08:26):
This is like if I want an answer, this must be the way to get the answer.

Ryn (08:30):
Yeah. Now this might be happening inside of you, even if it’s not at the most conscious, forward level of your thinking. And so what we’re trying to do here is not to say people are dumb. And they go and ask dumb questions, and then they give dumb answers. And then they dumbly think that they’re dumbly smart. That’s not what we’re trying to say here. We’re trying to become aware of a cognitive bias that almost all of us fall into. And that the only way to get out of is to work hard to train yourself to not fall into over and over again.

Katja (09:00):
Right.

Ryn (09:01):
Okay.

Katja (09:01):
And so also, if we recognize that the reason we think this is the way to get answers is because we see this everywhere, then we understand like oh, that’s why I think this is the way to do it. And why do we see it everywhere? Well, I think one of the reasons is because people need help, and they don’t know where to go to get help. So, they just go anywhere, anywhere I can ask a question to try to get some help. So, people who need help should get the help. And that’s going to be part of the answer here. But first I want to break down why this is a problem, and why asking a question like what herbs should I take for my gallbladder symptom is not going to get you what you need. And it might get you something that doesn’t help at all, which is disappointing, or that causes more problems, which is worse than disappointing. And then how to get real good answers to your questions so that you actually can get the help that you need.

(10:06):
So if somebody says how can I improve gallbladder symptoms? Your first thought as somebody who is studying herbalism might be oh, they should take liver-supporting herbs, and they should take bitters. And even right now as you’re listening to this, you might be like well yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually. So if you see that somewhere, if you see this question somewhere in a Facebook group or whatever, you might actually post. You might try to answer it, and you might say burdock and dandelion root. And in fact I am certain that if you go to whatever herbal Facebook group you belong to, which is hopefully zero, but it’s probably more than zero. If you go to any of them, you will find exactly this question with exactly this answer somewhere in that group.

Ryn (10:52):
Yeah.

Katja (10:53):
Okay, here’s the problem. You’re providing an answer without an understanding of what the symptoms actually are. So, how can you know that burdock and dandelion will actually do anything for this person? And even if they are the perfect herbs for that person, just the words burdock and dandelion root, that’s not enough information for the person to take action.

Ryn (11:18):
The words gallbladder symptoms aren’t enough for you to answer this question, right? Which ones? Which ones do you have? Are you having spasmodic pain? Are you having difficulty digesting fats? Do you know that there’s stones in there because that does rule out certain herbs you might want to recommend otherwise? We do not yet have the info that we need to proceed.

Katja (11:37):
Right. So, okay. We don’t have enough information. We say burdock and dandelion root. Well, should they get capsules? Should they take one a day? If they do, that won’t have the same effect as a decoction that they had three to four cups of a day. And if they make a tincture, that’ll have yet another different set of effects. And so even if burdock and dandelion root were the right herb for this person, even if you asked all the questions and whatever, that still isn’t enough information for them to actually take any action.

Ryn (12:06):
Right. We file this under the motto people do not consume the names of herbs. Naming an herb is one step, but naming a preparation method, a dose, a frequency, other considerations that go along with it, those are necessary steps. They have to come together. They have to come together.

We Need More Information: A Gallbladder Example

Katja (12:26):
Yeah. All right. So, in order to really answer this question, we need more information. We need to know what very specifically are the actual symptoms. And then once we have that, we need to give them very specific information about what we’re suggesting, why we’re suggesting it, what we think is going to happen, what they should expect as a result, and what they should watch for to say oops, this was the wrong direction. If we don’t do all of that, then we’re not serving the person who needs help. We can really never know if the first suggestion is going to work because every body is different. So, if we haven’t given them the information to evaluate for themselves that it is actually working in their body and not oops, causing some harm, but that we’re going in the right direction, then they aren’t going to be able to tell us if adjustments need to be made.

(13:31):
And so all of that is super important. And now you might be thinking yeah, I hear you on that second part. But the first part, what symptoms are they having? Well, they told you what symptoms they were having. They’re having gallbladder symptoms. Let me share a story with you. I had a client about 20 years ago who came in with exactly the same question. What’s good for gallbladder symptoms? She had just come from her primary care physician that morning, and she had experienced some pain the previous night. And her primary care physician said that she had to have her gallbladder removed because of that pain. Okay.

Ryn (14:10):
This is jumping to the knife. Yep. So, that’s your first warning.

Katja (14:15):
Yep. Okay. And like okay, we don’t know for sure that the practitioner jumped to the knife. No, we do actually. That is what happened.

Ryn (14:24):
We do in this case.

Katja (14:25):
In this particular case, okay. So my first question for this client was, tell me about the pain you experienced last night. And she said she was up all night with really bad gut cramping. And it scared her because it wouldn’t go away. And it was really severe. And it wasn’t until about three or four AM that it calmed down, and she was able to sleep. And she had never had pain like that before. Now the primary care physician, I asked, the primary care physician did not ask her anything about what she had eaten the previous night, but I did. She had been watching a football game with a bunch of friends, and she had eaten 20 peppermint patties and the big ones. She had had 20 of the big peppermint patties. She knew for certain that the number was 20 because we were all doing it. And mid-game they had to send somebody to the CVS on the corner to get more peppermint patties because they ran out. So, she knew for absolute certain the number that she had eaten. For dinner she had eaten a little bit of chicken and a little bit of broccoli before the game. She was in a rush, and she had eaten some leftovers. And she did not eat what she said was any of the junk that the other folks were eating, cheese curls and stuff like that. She had one beer, and otherwise she drank soda.

(15:50):
Now this person had a history of IBS, and we had been working together on that. And it was under control with diet. She had a strong sensitivity to dairy products that when we removed that, that took care of a lot of the IBS symptoms. Okay, peppermint patties have milk in them. So, 20 peppermint patties worth of milk, that absolutely would have been enough. I mean, even like one spoonful would have been enough to trigger her symptoms, and we knew that. But she had never had a symptom like this before. She’d had IBS, but this was totally different for her. The other thing about peppermint patties is that they have peppermint oil in them. And that’s not a problem in a reasonable quantity. But by the time you have 20 of the full-sizes peppermint patties, that’s enough peppermint oil that somebody could absolutely have cramping just being caused by the peppermint oil.

Ryn (16:46):
Yeah. You’ve got some tissues in the guts that are now excessively relaxed and others that are trying to compensate in some way. And so you get these like spasms and weird stuff going on.

Katja (16:54):
Yeah.

Ryn (16:55):
Yeah.

Katja (16:56):
Okay. Plus that’s a lot of sugar. So, 20 peppermint patties today have 520 grams of sugar in them, but shrinkflation is real. So, it probably was actually a somewhat higher number 20 years ago. But regardless, we’ll go with the today number. 520 grams of sugar in a three-to-four-hour period. That much sugar alone is probably enough just to cause vomiting and gut cramping as well. The World Health Organization guidelines for added sugar consumption for a whole day is 25 grams for an adult. Obviously most people have more than that, but 520 grams is drastically more than that plus.

Ryn (17:44):
It’s 20 times that much, and it’s in a compressed window of time. Yeah, that’s a lot.

Katja (17:49):
All right. So, my feeling in this situation was gee, I think the peppermint patties probably caused the gut cramping. That seemed logical to me based on all these factors. And since the gallbladder surgery wasn’t scheduled yet. And since she could be sure to ask her doctor to do a second evaluation before actually having the surgery, just to be sure that the surgery was actually necessary. Then my thinking was let’s give ourselves like a month and see if we can get things back to normal for her, get things back to baseline, get things stable. Now as an herbalist, it is not legal, neither is it good for me to say you should not have that surgery. That’s not my job. And also that would be practicing medicine without a license, not legal. But also I don’t want to do that because I don’t really know if she should have that surgery or not. But what I can do as an herbalist, legally and also appropriately, is to remind a client that they can ask for more testing or a second evaluation to double check before they take the action on a surgery, especially because the surgery wasn’t even scheduled yet. So, we talked a lot about that. We came up with a plan that she would have a nice, soothing gut heal tea, herbal tea blend. If I remember correctly, it was calendula, and chamomile, and fennel. She had worked with a blend…

Ryn (19:24):
Maybe some peppermint because we know she likes it.

Katja (19:26):
No, no, no, no. We hadn’t put peppermint in there. I know for certain because I was like…

Ryn (19:32):
Maybe we’ll leave that aside. We’ve had enough menthol for the next month.

Katja (19:35):
Right? But we had worked with a blend very similar to that previously when we were first getting the IBS symptoms under control. So, this was kind of like a return, a slightly modified version. And that she would eat really simple, whole foods. A lot of broth and sticking to things like chicken and rice and simple vegetables that were cooked for at least the first few weeks but hopefully a month. And also to stay strict on the avoidance of the foods that were triggers for her. Dairy was one of those. So, that seemed to work. The symptom never did return. And she felt stable, and things were under control again. When she saw the doctor again, which was six or eight weeks later, they did go ahead and schedule the gallbladder removal surgery. A month later she came back. She had had the surgery, and she said they biopsied it and actually came back and told her your gallbladder was fine. It was perfectly healthy. There were no stones and no signs of any problem. But now it was out, and you can’t put it back in. It’s out, right? Yeah. So, the point of this story is when you hear somebody say gallbladder symptoms, even if you are a medical doctor, you don’t know what they’re talking about until you ask. And if you don’t ask any further questions and just start giving answers at that point, you’re not going to give a good answer. Or if you’re the person who’s having gallbladder symptoms, and you just say that, and you are waiting for answers to come to you. They’re not going to be good, quality answers that will actually help you because people just don’t have enough information to get what you need for you.

Ryn (21:31):
Yeah. So, you do deserve some kind of an answer.

Katja (21:34):
Yeah.

How to Get An Answer: An RSV Example

Ryn (21:35):
Or such an answer is achievable. Maybe we put it separate from deserve, but there are ways to get answers to this kind of question. But posting on a Facebook group and getting a one-word response back isn’t going to do it. So, it can take some time. It can take some extra effort to figure out what’s going on there. But it is possible to go through that. And it’s also possible to do it without having an enormous outlay of money.

Katja (22:03):
Right. So, what you really need is a community herbalist or a clinical herbalist who is going to sit with you and talk to you about your body and your symptoms specifically and what you need and what will meet your goals. And you can do that. There are lots of places where you can do that for free and low cost. So, our school has Free Clinic every month on the first Wednesday of the month. And we also have low-cost Student Clinic sessions that are available seven days a week. So, there are also a few other schools that run free clinics and low-cost clinics as well. And some of them are online, some of them are in person. Ours is online. So, my point here is that if you are out there with a health problem, and you want to ask this kind of question. Instead of just putting it in a Facebook group or somewhere where you’re not going to get an answer that will actually be tailored to your body and your needs, go to a free clinic. We’ll put some links in for ours, and we’ll see if we can gather some other ones for you too. Go to a free clinic and get real help. Let somebody go through your symptoms with you. Let them hear you explain how this feels in your body and what’s really going on for you so that they can create a plan together with you that’s going to work for you and get you what you really need.

Ryn (23:33):
Yeah. Yeah. But we are going to do a few examples of some of these questions mainly to illustrate why we can’t give it a single word answer. And if you have this kind of question, or if you are one of the people who sent in some of these kinds of questions, this isn’t like to scold you but to explain why the internet at large can’t just answer it for you and to talk about some of the factors and some of the steps you’re going to go through to try to figure this out for yourself. And we hope that to be helpful to you if you’re studying herbalism and trying to become a community herbalist, a clinical herbalist, so you can see how this plays out. Yeah? All right. So the general theme though is going to be that these kinds of questions should generate more questions.

(24:15):
Yeah. That’s the necessary first step. So as an example, somebody wrote in and said hey, I’m trying to deal with brain fog that got worse following an infection with RSV. And I’d like some suggestions. So, brain fog associated with RSV, give me some herbs. Hang on, wait. First let’s ask was this RSV, or was it COVID? And not in a way of like I interrogate you. But oh, was that like you got a lab test result back on it. You were sure that this was the kind of virus you were dealing with. That can make a difference in what we’re going to do about it. Even if you were sure, I’m still curious about COVID because how many rounds of COVID have you had? And how strongly we know COVID infection and reinfection correlates with brain fog as well as a whole long list of other symptoms. So, I’m definitely going to want to know about your health history in that sense. But either way, we do have to get past the label – brain fog – and ask more about the manifestation of it. So, there’s a sort of classic brain fog that emotionally and mentally feels cold, and damp, and heavy, right, as if your mind is buried in mud. And so for that, maybe the first place to begin experimenting is going to be with warming and stimulating aromatics that have dispersive qualities to them. So, are you thinking about rosemary already? Are you thinking about sage and tulsi? Isn’t that a little trio we talked about a minute ago around getting things moving inside of your mind? Yeah.

(25:50):
So there’s that. But look, sometimes people call it brain fog when what they’re experiencing is more hot. And they’re distracted, and they’re unsettled, and they’re agitated. And in this case I don’t usually want to just cool down or sedate the mind, but I do want to find a way to let off that steam, that internal pressure. And so I’m looking there at relaxing, diaphoretic herbs like elderflower, lemon balm, maybe skullcap. Maybe peppermint even can make its way into there. Okay. But we’ve gone into pretty different directions in terms of what set of herbs we’re going to look at or start with based on not the name of the problem, but their description of what it feels like for them to cope with that.

Katja (26:34):
And then the actions that we’re trying to achieve. Those herbs were just examples. We could list 10 more herbs in either case, but we’re looking for those actions.

Ryn (26:44):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Katja (26:46):
Okay. Wait though, because brain fog can be a symptom of lots of other things as well. Is this person having a reaction to food sensitivities? And the first thing they might say is well, I don’t have any food sensitivities. And that might have been true earlier in their life. But after a few rounds of COVID, after a round of RSV, after a car accident or any other stressful event in life, sometimes things that we used to get away with now cause inflammatory problems. And so it’s really important to do some investigating there. Because if we just went and started with herbs, but they were reacting to a food that was common in their diet. Then the herbs would never be able to keep up with the problem because the problem is constantly coming in. It’s not like that problem actually happened once because of a particular infection. Maybe, maybe the infection kicked off a sensitivity, but then that food is coming in every single day creating new problems. Or maybe that RSV infection never was actually, maybe it was a red herring. Maybe it was never actually involved. We don’t really know till we just ask.

Ryn (28:04):
Right, right. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. And look, sometimes the issue is that you’re having a symptom, and it’s triggered by a food sensitivity or some other area about the fundamentals of your life and your habits. So, it could be that for this individual feeling brain fog symptoms, that the poor sleep they’re getting is the biggest factor. And that’s a case where it might feel counterintuitive if you just look at the name of the problem and then the herbs you end up recommending. Because they’re like my brain is sluggish and slow, and you end up recommending wild lettuce, and skullcap, and passionflower. And it’s like well, that doesn’t make sense unless you know that the poor sleep is the major reason for the brain fog. If we can improve the sleep, you can wake up, and you can think more clearly for the whole day. So, now my sleep herbs are my brain fog herbs. And it only makes sense when you see the connection and you can tell the story.

Katja (29:02):
It could also be that when we’ve talked to this person we find out that the brain fog really isn’t as much of a problem in the mornings. It starts maybe around a 10 o’clock in the morning, maybe 11, and then goes throughout the rest of the day. Well, the more that we talk to them, we find out that they work in an office with really poor circulation, and that the carbon dioxide levels in there are really high. And then we say okay, well, you know what? Let’s test that. And we get a carbon dioxide monitor, which they’re easy to find and not even expensive these days, and take it to work. And holy cow, the carbon dioxide in the space where she works is like over 1500. And yeah, of course that’s going to cause brain fog. And then by the end of the day you get home. Okay, well maybe you have better circulation in your house, but you’re tired now because you’ve been tired all day. Those levels of carbon dioxide are really common. And they are enough to create similar impairment to a DUI, like the level of alcohol that would create a DUI. And so it might be like there’s nothing actually wrong with you. The problem is with the office. And so what we need to do is get an HVAC contractor in there, or get permission to open the window, or whatever.

(30:23):
And so just if we aren’t looking into all the different parts of their life and finding all the different causes that could be of course overlapping, right? Maybe what if it’s more than one of these different things or other things that we didn’t bring up yet. If we don’t find those things, then we’re just going to be like oh, bacopa will fix the problem because it’s trendy, and everybody loves it right now for brain fog. But it’s not going to help this person at all. They’re going to go away and be like well, herbs don’t work. I tried it. They don’t work. I think herbs are a hoax. Herbs are whatever. And also they’re not going to think much of you because that person isn’t good at this. They couldn’t help me. So all the way around, we want to get the person what they need, and we need to ask the questions to do that.

An Idiopathic Edema Example

Ryn (31:14):
Yeah. Let’s take another example. So, somebody wrote in and they were asking about what herbs would be helpful for idiopathic edema and talking about like what do you do when you’re all swollen up like a blimp? So, there’s a lot really even just in that amount of what they gave to us. So idiopathic as a medical term, what it really means is we don’t know. They can’t figure out what the cause is, but that matters here because edema has a list of common causes. And so if you’ve been to the doctors, and they ended up calling it idiopathic edema, that probably means, we do have to check, but it probably means that they’ve ruled out some of the most common reasons for it, like imbalance in your electrolyte intake, or the amount of salt that your body’s holding onto versus getting rid of, poor circulation overall, sluggish function of the kidneys and their filtration rate and so on. So, there are things that can be assessed and analyzed. And if that’s been done, then that also has some consequences for us as herbalists and the ways that we might want to leap to a response when we just hear edema. Oh yeah, we’ll get you some diuretics right away.

Katja (32:27):
And the thing is that really kind of think about what that means. The doctors don’t know. And without asking any further questions, we’re just going to give you an answer? But they’ve done testing, and they can’t figure it out. Okay, come on. We’re going to need to ask some questions. Now listen, just because something can’t be or hasn’t yet been explained by the person’s doctor does not mean that we can’t figure it out with them.

Ryn (32:56):
It doesn’t mean that they got a thorough investigation.

Katja (32:58):
Right.

Ryn (32:58):
It could have been well, we usually run this one lab test, and we ran it, and it’s not the normal result for this. So, something strange is happening here. I’ve got to go to the next one.

Katja (33:06):
Right, right, right. And sometimes it’s true. Sometimes people get diagnoses that are just wrong. And I don’t want to be poo pooing on doctors or anything else. But I do want to say that they only have a short period of time with their patients. We have a long period of time with our clients. And so a lot of times the discussions that we can have with clients are not really available to the doctor. And so we can get information that helps us see a pattern or see where this is originating, where a doctor might not simply have the time to do that. And then after that discussion, one of the outcomes might be we should take these thoughts to your doctor and say hey, these are some things that we think you should know. Does this change your opinion about what’s going on? Or some of the thoughts might be oh, now I see some herbs that could be really helpful or some other actions that could be really helpful.

Ryn (34:10):
Yeah. Yeah. Another layer here though is just the name idiopathic edema doesn’t tell us where in the body is this extra fluid stuck, right? Because that matters for us. Is it all over the entire body everywhere? Is it just down in your legs? Is it just in one joint, like one knee that you injured 10 years ago? Is it in one arm, or in the torso of the body, or whatever mixture it is? But each of these could have a different answer for us. If the edema is just in the torso around the belly even, well, maybe that’s just a response to some food that you’re eating. And we’re going to need to figure out some food sensitivities, and that’s going to be the thing that’s going to change the fluid retention for you. Or maybe they have edema in the legs, but it’s really only in one leg and not the other one. We’re like well, how did that happen?

Katja (35:06):
I mean, sometimes that happens. That’s not necessarily uncommon, but we still need to figure out why that happens. And one possibility, which is sort of laughable if you said this to a doctor, but is absolutely real. If somebody sits at their desk with their legs crossed the same way all day, every day, you’re going to damage the vasculature in that leg differently than in the other leg. And so over time that absolutely is going to have an impact. And even though that is a ridiculous example. Seriously, you’re probably out there thinking Katja, that is really silly. You might be. But all the herbs in the world are not going to help this person until we realize oh, we need to get you a different chair, or we need to get you standing up through the day, or we need to just not cross your legs or something. Because the problem is still happening. So, I think it’s important. This a place where a ridiculous answer like that really is plausible. And if you’re just like no, I’m just going with this medical word, and I’m just going to work with that. And you kind of rule out the reality that actually it could even be something silly. Which I mean, it’s silly when you say it, but it’s not silly to that person because it’s causing them pain and discomfort. Right, right, right.

Ryn (36:28):
All right. So, we’re going to get enough details to provide an actual answer. It’s going to take a little extra work, especially in a case where it seems to have already been figured out or put into that box of you’re never going to figure out why that’s happening. There’s still work for us to do. Another common element when we encounter a question like this is the necessary involvement of non-herbal interventions. So, for idiopathic edema we might hear about it. We might ask some questions and be thinking herbal actions, right? Lymphatics, diuretics, stir up the fluids, drain away the excess, cool. But it’s not actually time to think about the herbs yet. Because the different herbs work differently for one thing. If somebody’s having edema up in the chest after a mastectomy, the herbs, the preparation methods that I’m going to suggest there are going to be different from somebody with edema down in the legs coming from 12 hours of sitting at work all day every day seven days a week. They’re always there.

Katja (37:30):
Or coming from a cardiovascular problem or a kidney problem. Or coming from complications of diabetes, which is going to include cardiovascular problems or kidney problems. Even just with that one, just in the legs, there can be multiple different. Yeah. And then even if we think about the mastectomy, even before we think about which herbs we have to be like okay, well what stage are we in post-mastectomy? And is it even safe to be working with herbs yet? And has everything healed from the surgery enough that we can handle a stimulation inflow, right?

Ryn (38:04):
Right. And yet alongside all of that, maybe even more important than this, is going to be physical movement. Your muscles move the fluids through most of your body. If the muscles aren’t moving, the fluids aren’t going to go anywhere. And so if this person can walk, then that’s where we’re going to start. And we don’t look at this as like oh yeah, well, the herbs are really going to fix your problem, but walking would be good. It’s closer to the reverse than that. The walking, the physical movement, the movement changes in your habits. Because this is going to include don’t be sitting in one position for eight hours at a time or standing in one position for eight hours a time if you work at a counter. We’re going to want to build in movement breaks. We can be specific about things to do during your movement breaks to get movement in the particular spots where things are most stuck. A lot of times it happens that people who are really interested in herbs will try to do things with herbs alone that really do require or are magnificently enhanced by additional interventions around food, movement, sleep, stress mitigation, and sometimes community connection as well. And when those aspects aren’t addressed, then the herbs can only do so much for you.

Katja (39:25):
I think edema is such a really great example of that when we think about just pulling out movement. I mean, I could say this about sleep or any of the other stuff too, but we’re just going to pull movement for a minute. The lymphatic system has no pump. Like your circulatory system has a pump. And okay, your heart is not responsible for getting blood down to your toes. Your muscles help with that job. Okay. But still there is still a pump, but your lymphatic system has no pump. The only way for lymphatic fluid to move is from muscular contraction. So, if this person can’t walk, that’s okay. We can still work those muscles in some other way by some other kind of movement, but some kind of movement is going to be required. Otherwise, all the lymphatic stimulants in the world, anything that we give, or any diuretic, or anything else, we still can’t move the fluid unless we’re moving the muscles.

A Long-Term Constipation Example

Ryn (40:27):
They can’t do the job. The herbs and the holistic health habit interventions, they go together. They go together. Yeah. All right. Well, a similar example, right? So somebody wrote in and said, what herbs can I take for severe long-term constipation, and I can take them on a daily basis? All right. So, before we even think about herbs here, we’ve got some things to consider. And you can hit pause and be like well, what would I think of before herbs in that one?

Katja (40:52):
And I mean, you probably already have thought in your head of a specific herb that has already jumped to your head, and that you could be like oh, I’ll just say this. And so the immediate thing to do is when you hear an herb jumping into your mind, okay, we’re not going to just spit it out, like throw it out. We’re also not going to spit it out to the person. We’re going to set it aside. It might be useful later, so we’re not going to forget it. But we’re also not going to latch onto it because there’s other things to think about first.

Ryn (41:29):
Right. So, we’re going to ask about fluid intake. We’re going to ask about fiber intake. About what kind of fats and oils they eat, and how much, and how often. And we’re going to ask about movement habits. Because all of those things are really huge factors in healthy, and consistent, and repeatable bowel movements. Yeah.

Katja (41:50):
For that matter, we’re going to ask about diet in general. Because if their diet is 25% cheese, that poop is going nowhere.

Ryn (41:58):
That can be a huge factor for people.

Katja (42:01):
That’s a huge factor, right? I mean, cheese is delicious. But even if this person was like no, I don’t have a dairy sensitivity. I’m fine with it. Whoa, that much cheese is still going to be constipating. Yeah.

Ryn (42:15):
Okay. So, we start with those foundational habits. And then we can think about herbs, but we’re not going to leap to herbs before we do a few more assessments or investigations. So, constipation itself is generally some combination of tissue states in the intestines that are cold, and/or dry, and/or tense. And so warming, or moistening, or relaxant herbs are going to be helpful. And we can start with the ones that are most extreme. So for some people, their constipation is going to respond super well to ginger. Because it’s warming, and we’ve got a relaxant quality, and that just fits the need, and it does the job.

Katja (42:56):
That’s going to be a person who tends towards stagnation in other areas of their body as well. And also probably a person who runs cold and damp. Because that’s like a classic stagnant pattern. So, heating them up and adding in mobility, and in this case it’s circulatory mobility for the most part, but we’re also relaxing tension. And the tension can just come from trying to hold onto all that stagnant stuff. So, even if your body overall is lax, you still can have tension in just the intestines. So, all of that in that kind of person is going to be way more effective. That warming action is going to be way more effective than something that was just an outright laxative.

Ryn (43:45):
Right. But if you have somebody who’s constipated but super dry, then okay, increase the importance of more fluid intake for one thing. But also let’s get them a demulcent herb like marshmallow. If we just throw ginger at them, and especially if we just throw it in the form of something hot and dry like a tincture, then that may not help them very much. Yeah, ginger’s going to try to move things and try to release tension. But if there’s not enough lubrication, it’s still not going to go very far. And so the marshmallow could be way more important and effective for that individual. Some people might respond really well to good, strong chamomile. We’ve got a little bitter influence coming through. We’ve got a good relaxant action coming through in there. Maybe there’s also a nervous element of their constipation that the chamomile’s helping to address. And so that could be the most helpful herb for them. All right. And then we can also admit that yeah, there’s always yellow dock, or there’s always coffee.

Katja (44:47):
Two herbs that probably jumped right to your mind.

Ryn (44:50):
And those will give you a bowel movement. But we recognize in that that they’re not going to fix the root of the problem if those foundational elements aren’t addressed, and if we don’t ever consider constitution, and we don’t ever consider their diets, and their movement habits, and so on.

Katja (45:08):
If you’re just traveling, and you are bound up because that happens when you travel. There’s no problem with just grabbing some yellow dock or some coffee and don’t make it so complicated. Just take some, and it’ll be fine. Especially if you already know that works for you. But this person’s talking about severe, long-term constipation. And yellow dock might simply not be enough. It might actually not touch it. I’ve known lots of people who have taken yellow dock and said yeah, that didn’t do anything for me. So if this is severe, long-term, chronic constipation, just grabbing some cascara sagrada is not a fantastic idea. Maybe sometimes as a one off in an emergency kind of super discomfort situation. But that very quickly turns into not a one off, you know?

Ryn (46:01):
Yeah. Too easy to slide down that way, right?

Katja (46:04):
Yeah, yeah.

Ryn (46:06):
But just kind of think back over the course of the answer that we gave here because we start with foundational interventions. Then we go on to energetic assessment of the tissue state in the particular area that’s got a problem. We think about how to match appropriate herbs to them. Or we see those as experiments that help us to verify and identify the tissue state that’s at play. You try the marshmallow, and it doesn’t really help. Okay, dryness wasn’t a big driver there after all. Fine. Information for us to move forward with. Okay. And then after that we can think of direct symptomatic or palliative kind of a remedy probably with a stronger acute-phase action to it. And we can be clear that this isn’t about fixing the underlying issue. This is about immediate relief. Yeah. Okay. You see the pattern there? I trust you. So, this just brings us right back to where we started however many hours ago that was with the themes about uncertainty and experimentation from the very first question. This is the process that we go through. This is the only way to really identify what helps, what’s going on, what we’re going to do about it, and what we’re going to try next. Until that’s accomplished we remain in the less helpful form of uncertainty. We need to do some experiments to test out our hypotheses, provide data, generate new ones, and we can go forward from there. And this applies to whatever kind of question we’ve got, including ones that there is no way to actually answer them straight.

A Response to Turmeric & Slippery Elm Examples

(47:34):
So, like one person wrote in and said every time I take turmeric, or even touch it, or apply it to somebody else I get bladder spasms. What’s going on? And I’m sure that they were hoping for us to be like oh, I see it all the time. It’s a specific thing. But I don’t have a straight answer for that. We do have some questions that might help you to figure it out. Including okay, you react really strongly to turmeric. Do you react that strongly to isolated curcumin? What would happen if we took a single chemical supplement version and tried that? I don’t know yet. I’m not sure. But it would be interesting to see. It would be one way to narrow down what you’re observing. Maybe a better way actually would be to look in the family and say have you had any reaction anywhere like that to ginger? Pretty similar to turmeric. Okay, it doesn’t contain curcuminoids. If that’s the difference, maybe those guys are the culprit. Or other members of the Zingiberaceae family, cardamom, galangal, the grains of paradise, korarima, any of these different members, do they also set off that reaction for you? It could be some kind of a family intolerance or allergy that you’ve got going on.

Katja (48:46):
It’s also worth asking about the bladder spasms themselves. Because what if it doesn’t have anything to do with turmeric? What if turmeric is like an innocent bystander who just happens to be there when this is happening? What other times does this person get bladder spasms? Could this person actually have interstitial cystitis or a chronic UTI? And they have made this association in their mind with the turmeric, but it’s actually not the right association. And so they’re suffering with this bladder problem that isn’t being dealt with because they’ve associated it with turmeric. Maybe not. Maybe turmeric really is the cause. But we don’t know until we get really curious and start asking all these different questions to figure out all the different possible sources of input that could be at play here.

Ryn (49:40):
Yeah. All right. And then for the person who wrote in asking if slippery elm was a good remedy for acid reflux. My question in response is what does a good remedy do? Because slippery elm will very reliably relieve the burning sensation when you have an active flare up of heartburn, right? And it will soothe irritated mucosa in your throat and in your stomach. And that’s good. That’s good. It’s palliative. But if you’re looking for something that will quote-unquote cure your acid reflux, then slippery elm may not accomplish that because your acid reflux could be due to a lot of pressure inside of your abdomen. And maybe that’s coming from dysbiosis that’s causing bloating in response to some of the food that you eat. Or maybe that’s coming because of your alignment and your posture in the chairs that you sit in that kind of cause you to crunch your belly inside, and that makes a lot of pressure in there. It wants to push up against your stomach and against the lower esophageal sphincter. And now that’s a big contributor to your heartburn. Slippery elm won’t change those habits, those food elements, those responses to the way that you sit and move. And so is it a good remedy? I’m not sure. You have to answer that, right? If your reflux is coming from stress, if it’s coming from a food intolerance, et cetera, et cetera. We need more information, and we need to do some experiments before we’re going to figure out if this is the right thing for you.

Katja (51:07):
And also we need to know what do you actually want? I think that’s a really important part of what does a good remedy do. What result are you looking for? And if you’re looking for oh, I don’t want to ever have to think about this again. Okay, well, no. But if you’re looking for this doesn’t happen very often. But every once in a while it happens, and I just need something to soothe it in that moment. Well, okay. Actually probably.

Ryn (51:34):
Yeah, for sure.

Katja (51:36):
All right. Well, that was all quite a ramble. You might be over there thinking come on, what’s the harm in just saying sure, slippery will probably be great. Or suggesting some lymphatic stimulants or whatever. Because hey, it’ll probably help anyway, right? It might.

Ryn (51:57):
It might. It might. Every herbalist has plenty of stories of I gave them the first herb that came to mind, and it really, really helped a lot. And then they were super thrilled. And that’s a nice day to have as a practitioner. But it won’t be every one of your days.

Katja (52:13):
No. And also that story doesn’t always have a happy ending. Sometimes that story has oops, and I made it way worse. And so then there’s the one in the middle. What if it does nothing? Well okay, now that person says I tried herbs, and they didn’t work, right?

Ryn (52:29):
Yeah.

Katja (52:31):
And that person now isn’t helped, isn’t served at all. So on one hand yes, herbalism is the people’s medicine. It is available to anyone. It certainly is way more accessible than many other types of options. But it doesn’t mean that we as herbalists don’t need training. We need a lot of training. And for the person on the other side of the table, right? They can’t just ask a question and get a pez dispenser answer that will just solve all the problems. There has to be a dialogue. There has to be a consultation with collaboration in order to find the thing that will actually help them. The thing that will help them is out there. The thing that will help them may be multiple things that we stack next to each other to get a cumulative improvement that we’re happy with. It may not be one thing. It might be multiple things. Actually, it’s almost always multiple things. But we’re not going to be able to figure that out without the discussion, without the conversation, without the uncertainty that builds curiosity, that helps us to come up with the right answer for this particular person in their own body that is different than everybody else’s body.

The Answer is Never Just the Name of An Herb

Ryn (53:51):
And that answer is not going to be the name of an herb. And so don’t accept that in a clinical context. Don’t accept that in a social media herbal discussion group context. It’s not a helpful answer anywhere. Be digging for the rest of the details, the rest of the protocol, the rest of the formula, the rest of the story.

Katja (54:13):
And really I think this is also a call to action for people to be seeking out their local community herbalists and clinical herbalists and seeking out those free options. If you are with budget constraints, there are free options. There are low-cost options. They are available. We have openings every single day. And so if you’re out there saying I can’t find one, we can hook you up. But I think that as an herbal community if we are recognizing that the simple answer I have this problem, what’s my answer? That that really doesn’t work for people. And especially a lot of people have had that experience already in the medical world, and it didn’t work for them. And now they’re coming to the herbal world. And if we just replicate that same experience, we’re not serving them. So, really that we as students and practitioners and people as seekers of assistance, if we are all pushing for more, for more – not the one-word answer, not the simple off the cuff answer, but really personalized, collaborative kind of care – then everybody is going to be better served, lifted up. It’s going to cause herbalists to seek skill development, to be constantly learning and constantly developing their craft, which is how you don’t be bored. And it’s good for everybody. Yay. Sorry. I realize that I sound like I have pom-poms going on here, but I also feel really strongly about it so…

Ryn (56:06):
So rah, rah, rah. Come on.

Katja (56:07):
Yeah. If you feel really strongly about it. If you’re over there with your pom poms, and you’re like yes Katja, I feel that way too. Then we belong together. And you should come and study with us because we would love that. Yeah.

Ryn (56:23):
So remember, you can find us at commonwealthherbs.com, and we have courses for you, whoever you are, whatever level you’re at. Whether you’re a brand-new beginner, and this is all kind of blowing your mind in six directions. Or you’re somebody who’s been at this for a while, and we’ve been blowing your mind in three directions you didn’t realize were there. Yep.

Katja (56:46):
Yes. So again, that is commonwealthherbs.com. And you are welcome to email us anytime. You’ll find our email address there. It’s info@commonwealthherbs.com. Ask us anything. We are happy to help. We’ve got free courses. We’ve got low-cost courses. We’ve got Free clinic. We’ve got low-cost clinic. We have a million ways for you to get in touch with us and see if we have something that you want. So, please do. All right. Well, I hope that you enjoyed that. I hope that it was helpful for you. I hope that as you were listening to it, you were thinking about different friends, and family members, and people in your community who have health issues and starting to break those down. I really want you to be able to take these examples and use them as a template for yourself as you are working through problems for yourself, for your family, for your friends. Okay. Well, don’t forget that the sale code is CATNIP. It’s on until the end of July. It gives you 20% off anything and everything you could want. It’s unlimited. Use it as often as you want. Share it with your friends. Yes. And then this is the point in the podcast where Ryn would say take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Drink some tea. And use the code CATNIP to get 20% off your entire herbal education. Bye-bye.