Podcast 236: Interview with Ashley Bissonnette-Murphy

This week we’d like you to meet Ashley Bissonnette-Murphy, who is one of our Clinical Mentorship students. Ashley is advanced in her mentorship, and she’s been seeing her own clients in our Student Clinic and Free Clinic for a year. She does great work!

You can find Ashley at hwapothicaire.com and on social media at @hwapothicaire. Definitely jump on her mailing list to get her excellent monthly newsletters!

We mentioned our free Herbal Business Productivity mini-course in this episode. It’s part of our comprehensive Herbal Business Program!

And if you’re interested in becoming a clinical herbalist, you can learn more about the education you’ll need, how to get it, and what the process looks like here: Build a Career as a Clinical Herbalist.

If you have a moment, it would help us a lot if you could subscribe, rate, & review our podcast wherever you listen. This helps others find us more easily. Thank you!!

Our theme music is “Wings” by Nicolai Heidlas.

Episode Transcript

Katja (00:13):
Hi, I’m Katja.

Ryn (00:14):
And I’m Ryn.

Ashley (00:15):
And I’m Ashley.

Katja (00:17):
And we’re here at Commonwealth Holistic Herbalism in Boston, Massachusetts.

Ryn (00:21):
And on the internet everywhere, thanks to the power of the podcast.

Katja (00:24):
Woo hoo.

Ryn (00:26):
All right. So, you might’ve noticed that we’ve got a third person on the pod today, and that’s Ashley, who is one of our most advanced clinical herbalism students at the moment.

Katja (00:37):
Yeah. Really rocking it. And we thought that you wonderful podcast people out in the world would enjoy hearing from Ashley about her work as a developing clinical herbalist and working on leaving the nest. I almost feel like it’s not quite right to say student anymore, because you’re moving into that transition phase. But I don’t quite know the right word. But yes, moving out into practice into the world.

Ryn (01:15):
Yeah. Ash has been sitting with us for some years now. And you started seeing free clinic clients almost a year ago in September of last year.

Katja (01:25):
Yeah. In two weeks it’s going to be… Or by the time you hear this podcast, maybe it will be the one-year anniversary of you seeing your first clients.

Ryn (01:33):
Yeah. And then also seeing the student clinic clients since the beginning of this year as well. So, you’re racking up the clinical hours. You’re building up your docket of clients and everything. It’s been really great.

Katja (01:45):
Yeah. So, we thought that we would do some interview time with Ash and let y’all hear her story about coming into clinical herbalism. And hopefully that will motivate and inspire you all out there in your studies too.

Ryn (02:07):
So, first we’re going to do our reclaimer. And that’s where we remind everybody that we’re not doctors. We’re herbalists and holistic health educators.

Katja (02:15):
The ideas discussed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice. I guess they also don’t necessarily constitute business advice, but hopefully business inspiration.

Ryn (02:26):
There we go.

Katja (02:27):
Yeah, yeah. No state or federal authority licenses herbalists in the United States. So, these discussions are for educational purposes only.

Ryn (02:37):
We want to remind you that good health doesn’t mean the same thing for everyone. Good health doesn’t exist as an objective standard. It’s influenced by your individual needs, experiences, and goals. So, keep in mind, we’re not attempting to present a single dogmatic right way that everyone should adhere to.

Katja (02:53):
Everyone’s body is different. So, the things that we’re talking about may or may not apply directly to you. But we hope that they’ll give you some new information to think about and some ideas to research and experiment with further.

Ryn (03:05):
Finding your way to better health is both your right and your own personal responsibility. This doesn’t mean you’re alone on the journey, and it doesn’t mean that you’re to blame for your current state of health. But it does mean that the final decision when you’re considering any course of action, whether it was discussed on the internet by a trio of your favorite herbalists or prescribed by your favorite physician, it’s still always your choice to make.

Katja (03:27):
All right. Well, okay. We got that out of the way. So, let’s jump in. Ash, what brought you to herbalism? What was your background before you became an herbalist?

Digging in to Clinical Herbalism

Ashley (03:42):
Well, first, I’m so excited to be here. Thank you both for having me on the podcast. Yeah, I’ve always been interested in herbalism. This wasn’t something that I found later in life. Actually, I started out in my studies in medical anthropology and public health and pursued that. And then I was a professor of public health doing that for some time, as well as working as a medical anthropologist in the field for 17 years. So, really uncovering indigenous Native American, Southern New England Native American remedies, but through an archeological context. Which is already pretty limited because aerial parts don’t preserve really in the soils, right? So, a lot of the char are the root materials, but it gave me a sense of what was going on, how indigenous people were working with them, and some of the earliest context. But my first…

Katja (04:35):
Can I just interrupt you to say, that’s wicked cool. And I didn’t know you could go to college for that. That’s awesome.

Ashley (04:44):
Yeah. So, I started working with some of the tribes. And from there really got roped into some grant work looking at the Pequot War and King Phillip’s War, which are 1636 and then the King Phillip’s War in 1675. And how those earliest conflicts really begin to strip away, or degrade, or push underground indigenous remedies, and that includes herbal medicine. So, there was a huge gap in historical record, ethnographies, you name it. But going through the archeological records, the ethnographies, there was always a big part of this that was missing. And that was why I wanted to go into clinical studies. We had no idea about dosage, how to use it for an individual. Just what was going on behind that – I’ll call it a dirt lens. It’s just there was so much that was missing. So, that really prompted me forward into public health, and beginning to learn the applications of preventative health, and then just really dabbing through with the clinical step with both of you. So, it’s been really exciting. But that’s kind of my evolution.

Ryn (05:58):
Yeah. It’s interesting because part of what you were saying there was just reminding me of an experience a lot of people have with herbalism. Which is like first you see people on Facebook asking questions about what’s the good herb for headaches? And then someone says feverfew. And that’s kind of the extent of the interaction. And in this case, it was more like what herbs did people work with? Well, we’ve got these preserved burdock roots around. Or I guess it would’ve been burdock, right, it would’ve been – I don’t know – yellow root or something like that. Or mitchella, something like this. But okay. So, what does that mean practically speaking? How did they prepare it? Like you said, what kind of doses did they take? Or how do you determine who’s the best match for it or that kind of thing? That’s hard to find just looking at dirt. It’s hard to find just looking at Facebook. And so, people need to have a way to dig further in.

Katja (06:50):
You know, actually I was having a conversation with somebody about this a couple weeks ago. And they are an historian, a straight historian mostly around like women’s issues. And with none of the medical anthropology side of things, just the actual history. And they were trying to make some statements about herbalism in history. And I was like I love you. That’s not actually accurate. It’s not actually possible for that to be accurate. And they were like, no, no, no because I’ve studied history. I know it’s true. I’m like studying history is critically important. We need that. And also, you have to know something about phytochemistry to recognize that there’s a big gap there that you don’t have all the things. So, we need both sides. We need people to understand the history. But in order to understand the history, you also have to understand the phytochemistry. And it really takes complete training in two different disciplines to be able to get to the full story of what they used to do, whatever that means.

Ashley (08:02):
Absolutely.

Ryn (08:03):
Kind of a fraught construct anyway, right?

Ashley (08:06):
Yeah, definitely.

Katja (08:07):
Okay. I just want to state for the record right now that this podcast episode could be five hours long if we let it. So, maybe we should choose not to let it. But wow, I would love to hear so many words about this. But we have a lot of other things that we really want to also talk to you about because they’re also interesting too. But wow. Right off the bat, super fascinating.

Ryn (08:33):
Yeah. All right. Well, let’s ask this then. Did you come into herbalism and be like I am going to be a clinician. I’m going to sit down with people. I’m going to help them figure out the right kind of herb. Or did you start in a different direction and kind of find your way there over time? How did that part happen?

Ashley (08:53):
I guess it’s a little of yes and no. I think it was a little bit of both. I think it was working in kind of a lab experience, and also working kind of solo in some regard in doing the research. But also teaching and wanting to be able to teach a little bit more so. So, it’s one of those situations where a person who doesn’t have experience and then they’re teaching it, it’s not as good, right? It’s not as…, you know.

Katja (09:25):
It’s challenging, yeah.

Ashley (09:26):
It’s challenging. So, once you have the experience, you get all excited. Now you want to share that further. But now you actually want to do more with that information. So, it was a progression. So, it didn’t just happen overnight, but yeah.

All About Teaching Others

Ryn (09:41):
Yeah. I mean, you’re kind of singing our song here, talking about the impulse to teach as something that leads to the impulse to do clinical work. Because it’s all teaching as far as we’re concerned. The way we talk about it, the way we teach about it to our students, but the way we talk about it to each individual client that comes in. Right there on our disclaimer form: the purpose of this session is educational in nature. We’re here to teach you stuff, not tell you what to do. Kind of like what we say in the reclaimer at the beginning. I’m not here to tell people do this, do that. Take that, stop this other thing. But to say here’s what might happen if you do it. Here’s what you should watch out for when you experiment with this. And these are the things we’d hope to see happen. And anyway, I’m talking too much.

Katja (10:26):
I want to jump on some of that thing too, about how it’s very spiraling necessarily, right? Because you learn a few things, and you teach them in one way or another. You teach them to your next-door neighbor who’s having problems with chronic headaches. And I don’t know, I just learned something. I’m going to tell you about it and try to help you with it. Or you teach them because you’re a professor, and so you try to integrate that into your curriculum or whatever else. But then you hit the limit of what it is that you’ve mastered. And well, mastered is a fraught word. But you’ve hit the limit of what you’ve got experientially. And then you’re like oops, gotta go get some more. Because really, like you said, you really can only effectively teach from your experience. It’s extremely difficult to teach in a completely abstracted kind of way.

Ashley (11:23):
Yeah. And there were personal reasons as well, especially learning more and getting more into my advanced studies with public health. My personal family members, my father in particular dying from things. It was a progression too of just chronic illness but very much preventable. And that was something that kind of there’s a little bit of anger involved in that, I think, the more you understand. And there’s definitely grief that comes with that. But it’s also how can I learn more to help my own family, to help myself. And then of course, once you’re able to really get a grasp on the information, to help the community. So, there was definitely personal reasons around that too.

Katja (12:08):
Yeah.

Ryn (12:10):
Yeah. Right. And you’ve been devoting more time to your clinical herbalism work lately, yeah?

Ashley (12:18):
Yeah. So, I’ve transitioned to teach part-time so I could really pursue my clinical practice and really make that a focus. Because again, I’m able to really have what I think is more of an impact on the community and to help those individuals. So, as cliche as this might sound, to help one client at a time, it makes such a big difference. But I can still teach and work with the community too. So, it’s the best of both worlds. And it’s really where I need to be.

Ryn (12:48):
Yeah. You know, the sort of ideal that I sometimes have in mind when I’m doing client sessions is I’m going to teach this person some things to help their own body. They’re going to be able to share that with other people that are around them that may have similar problems. And then maybe they’ll also get interested in herbalism a little more and be like I want to learn all of it now. Just plant some herbalist seeds all over the state or all over the world. That’d be good.

Katja (13:16):
You know, I want to grab onto something you said there, because it’s also just really good business advice. You mentioned that it’s nice to help individuals intensively through their needs but also to be teaching as well, and to kind of balance that. So, in terms of how that nourishes you, but also how that allows you to nourish the community both at the personal and the broader scale. But also from a business perspective, I think that a lot of people don’t have a lot of experience with being self-employed. Because the model is usually like you have a job, and that job provides everything for you. And when you’re self-employed, the model that you have set up for yourself is actually super fantastic. You are doing two things that are important to you, that are very overlapping and woven together. But it’s two different revenue streams. And so, on one hand this is always a little bit challenging as herbalists because our primary goal is to help people. But also, in order to help people, we have to put on our own oxygen mask. And that means being able to pay our bills, and buy some food, and stuff like that. And so, it’s not callous to talk about how we fund ourselves. And that model of having I teach at the university part-time, and I see clients in the rest of my time. That allows you to have support from the community in two different ways for the work that you do. And so, I just want to draw attention to that as an intentional business model, and that it’s a good thing.

Ryn (15:05):
Yeah. Whether it’s that way long-term, or whether it’s a transition phase that you move through. You or other people doing this to be like all right, well I have a nine-to-five job. I want to do herbalism. And can I do some days a week? Can I cut down the hours so that I have time to devote to herbalism as well?

Katja (15:23):
But I’m not hanging out there without a net.

Finding Focus Through Experience

Ryn (15:27):
Whenever it’s possible, that’s nice. That’s better. Yeah, right. Well, you know, I’m curious. Everybody practices a little bit different. Everybody kind of has one or another focus in the way that they work. I’m always excited if people are interested to talk about movement, and exercise, and that kind of stuff. Because that’s been a lot of my interest apart from herbalism in terms of human health, and holistic health, and so on. But I wonder for you if there’s been anything in particular about your own life experience that’s kind of shaped the way that you do your work or the way you look about how you talk to people?

Ashley (16:07):
Yeah. Well, a big reason why I was drawn to the program is because it’s holistic. And being a medical anthropologist that’s been in public health, it’s so holistic to begin with. So, that was a big draw for me. But yes, there’s personal experiences too. A big driver for public health too is not only family issues, but I had a bout of severe acne when I was an adolescent. And then in adulthood, when you’re a public speaker it is just excruciating. And then from there, there’s also burnout. I was going to grad school. The commute time was about three hours. And I was working two, sometimes three jobs. So, it was like, you know what? I want this so bad, I’m going to make it work. And that’s always been my way of doing it. But burnout was definitely real. So, I had to deal with that and health repercussions. I’ve had skin cancer. I recently gave birth. So, working with that, and postpartum, and all that stuff has been definitely an experience. Lyme disease caretaker. So, all of these experiences really do inform what I’m interested in studying, but also how I practice as well coming with that experience but from a holistic lens.

Ryn (17:33):
Yeah. Well, you’ve never had the new herbalist problem of giving people too many things to accomplish in a single day if they were a superpowered kind of a metahuman who could bend time or whatever. You’ve had realistic protocols for people kind of right from the beginning. And I think that’s probably based on your experience of living with chronic illness and building up yourself to feel better as you work through that.

Katja (18:05):
Yeah. You know, a lot of new herbalists when they’re starting off working with clients… Okay. You don’t have to be a new herbalist. This actually could continue to be a challenge. But you kind of want to see all the things that would be really helpful for your client. And so, you kind of want to just give them this entire stack, like one of those cartoon stacks of pancakes that’s 10 feet tall. And you’re just like I just want to give you this whole stack of all the things that would help you. But that’s so overwhelming for a client. And I think that that experience, that constellation of experiences that you have had in terms of dealing with health issues and also being driven to learn, to grow, to achieve in service to your community. Those two parallel tracks that probably butted heads many times, I think all of that created a lot of experience in you that helps you to tailor your suggestions. A much smaller stack of pancakes is what I’m trying to say.

Ashley (19:15):
Right. And it’s buildable. So, you want to give them stuff that they can do, or in my case that I could do waking up out of bed. Be able to do that and feel empowered and let those lifestyle strategies build upon one another. And you just keep building as you feel more comfortable, and as you get more energy, as you’re able to free up more resources.

Ryn (19:37):
Yeah. And it’s sort of the perspective of like oh wait, I don’t have to do it all in the first conversation.

Ashley (19:45):
And you shouldn’t.

Ryn (19:46):
Yeah. It turns out, right?

Ashley (19:48):
Yeah.

Katja (19:50):
Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking of your style there. So, for folks who don’t know, in our school when you get to the point of clinical mentorship, you start off observing faculty taking clients, and then talking about it afterwards. And then when you feel ready, you start seeing clients, but one of us is always watching, and then we talk about it afterwards. And then once you feel really confident and we see that you’re rocking it, then you start taking clients by yourself. But we still talk about it afterwards. The talk about it afterwards part is always there.

Ryn (20:29):
That’s important for everybody.

Katja (20:30):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that will give a little context now when I say that I know you can work with basically anyone because I’ve been watching you do it. I actually have with my eyes watched you work with all different kinds of people, all different kinds of health issues and goals and all that stuff.

Ryn (20:52):
Including the situations which happen a lot as an herbalist, where they write down one thing on their intake form. And you think that’s what the conversation is going to be about. And then you get there in the actual session, and it’s a whole different problem, maybe more complicated. Or maybe there’s a bunch of confounding factors that were never mentioned before. And we’ve seen you get into a situation like that and be like no problem. Here we go.

Katja (21:18):
Right.

Ryn (21:19):
Like one second of processing, and then you’re just all set.

Client Preference & Making a Mark

Katja (21:22):
Yeah. So, that’s fantastic. Okay. But now that we’ve established that we know you work well with all different kinds of people, who are your favorite people to work with? When you get a particular kind of client, and you’re just like goody, this is my favorite issue. Who is that person?

Ashley (21:40):
I wouldn’t say it’s one issue in particular, but I love working with women in what I call the phases. So, especially a young woman transitioning. She has her period. How do I begin to support myself, find nourishing foods, begin to come up with lifestyle practices to build confidence, which I think is really important? And then the phases moving on through there, through motherhood. So, birth and postpartum, that was such a beautiful experience from my personal experience. Again, I’m interweaving my own experience through the people. Or not through the people but working with them because I have that insight. But birth, postpartum, and then a real reality is menopause coming up. So, I want to make sure that I have the information that it’s just going to be another beautiful transition as long as I have the information. Psychologically that’s how I’m going to go in.

Katja (22:40):
Listen, that’s a great way to go in. But as a perimenopausal woman, I will tell you there are many parts that are not beautiful.

Ashley (22:52):
But you know, that’s something that I’m actively doing a lot of research with and excited to work with those clients.

Katja (23:00):
Yeah. Awesome.

Ryn (23:02):
It’s an interesting frame to look at it in because it sort of encourages you to see the similarities in these otherwise very different periods in life. Like how is the woman going through menopause similar to the teenager – I would like to say but I guess maybe younger than that – having the period for the first time.? What are the connections there, including what kind of herbs might make sense for both people?

Katja (23:31):
It’s just tulsi forever, basically.

Ryn (23:37):
Yeah. Intriguing.

Ashley (23:38):
And I understand that everybody’s situation is very, very unique. So, part of that too, it’s exciting to find the creativity, and how other people experience it differently. That’s also very, very interesting to me.

Ryn (23:51):
Yeah.

Katja (23:53):
I love that. We could just pause this. When I’m editing, we could just pause this. And then I could just repeat that sentence because that was really good. So, if you’re listening to this, you can just back up a little bit and listen to Ash say that again. About how everybody’s experience of all these things is actually different because your bodies are different. Yeah, yeah. Really good stuff.

Ryn (24:16):
Yeah.

Katja (24:19):
Okay. So, you’re an herbalist. And you have finished your mentorship, and you have gotten your recognition as a registered herbalist with the American Herbalist Guild. And you have had a full and robust career. And you have helped everyone in your town, and all the surrounding towns, and across the nation, and probably internationally. And now you’re 70 years old, maybe you’re 80. How do you want people to remember you as a practitioner? What do you want to be your legacy in the herbal community when you’re on the other end of the career that you’re launching now? Well, the continuation of the launch of the career, I mean, because this is just weaving deeper and deeper into things you’ve been working on for a long time.

Ashley (25:12):
Yeah. I would say an educator and an herbalist, but somebody who really expands what we perceive as the health toolbox. So, I think for a very long time, especially my background in public health, there was just the vaccine, or there was just this. Or you know, the pop-the-pill kind of thing where many people don’t understand. There’s many different things. I think, again, lifestyle has definitely become more mainstream within the last 10 years. However, there’s still a long way to go. So, to let people know that there are multiple different tools that they can call upon. And herbalism being, I think, a really big part of it. And I live in rural Connecticut, so even when I bring up herbalism here, it’s not… Some people are like you work with cannabis?

Ryn (26:01):
All the time.

Ashley (26:02):
That’s not all I do. And that’s really where the conversation kind of stops until I open up those conversation doors. So, I really want to spend time and to really educate people that there are options.

Katja (26:17):
Nice.

Ryn (26:19):
Yeah, for sure. Well, listen, we are interviewing you in part because you’re one of our students. And this makes a really good opportunity to share a little bit about our clinical program because you know it better than – I don’t know – most folks apart from us having been in it for a while now.

Katja (26:37):
Having been in it and on the tail end of it now. Yep.

Live the Protocol & Program Perks

Ryn (26:41):
So, because of what you’ve learned through that and through your work, I wonder if you have any advice to share for other people who are interested in being herbalists, maybe pursuing clinical training or something like that. What will you tell them?

Ashley (26:59):
At the top of the list, I would say time management. This is always going to be a very intensive practice, but in the best possible way. I mean, I guess I can say from my personal experience. I don’t want to speak for anyone else. But if you’re going into clinical herbalism, for myself, you are invested. You wake up. You interweave herbs within your every day. So, as you both say, living the protocol, that’s part of it but with time management. So, you’re really building in time to do live the protocol. And you’re doing your research. And as you do more of the research, as you live more of the protocol, you begin to understand avenues of creativity. Which is so beneficial if you’re working with clients because there’s likes. There’s dislikes. There’s other health issues. There’s issues of financial accessibility, time accessibility that you have to take in consideration. So, until you really start doing this to see what’s involved, you’re lacking.

Ryn (28:04):
Yeah, right.

Katja (28:06):
So, you mentioned live the protocol. For folks who are not clinical students with us, live the protocol is a bumper sticker motto thing that we use really regularly. And it is a reminder of an exercise that we encourage everyone to do. And so, if you’re listening to this, we encourage you to do it too. And that is whether you are a clinical herbalist, or a student, or you’re just a person who likes plants, and you’re trying to help your neighbor, or your mom, or your whoever. Whatever advice you give someone, do it yourself. So, if you come up with a tea blend for somebody, make extra so that you can drink it too. That’s how you learn that it tastes terrible, and that you need to adjust the formulation. Or if you give somebody a whole protocol. You’re starting to work as a clinical herbalist, and you’re talking to someone. And you’ve come up with a plan, and you’ve got your stack of pancakes that you want to give to them. And each pancake is its own suggestion. Okay. You have now given that to them. You’ve written it down. You’ve made it very clear, all the things. But you do it also for at least a week, but a little longer is even better. Because that’s when you find out if what you told someone is valid, accessible, actually achievable.

Ryn (29:29):
Achievable in the course of a day, yeah.

Katja (29:31):
If it tastes good. If it works. Okay, the things that you’re giving to somebody else, maybe you’re helping somebody who has fibromyalgia, and you don’t have fibromyalgia. So, to some extent you can’t necessarily know if it works with quotey marks around it. But you can know if it tastes good, if it’s reasonable. You wanted them to drink three quarts of tea. Can you drink three quarts of tea in a day? Just because you can, doesn’t mean it’s easy for somebody else to do. But if you can’t do it, then they definitely can’t do it. You know, all those different kinds of things. Whatever it is, this is how you learn to refine your protocols and to refine your suggestions. And that oops, I’ve been telling somebody to do this thing, but actually it costs $50 a week to do that thing or whatever it is. Because there are so many suggestions that are great and helpful. And again, if we’re only thinking about it abstractly, then we don’t necessarily know the impact that that’s having. So, live the protocol. That’s what that bumper sticker is.

Ryn (30:37):
Yeah. Nice. Thanks for calling that back to us.

Katja (30:41):
Yeah.

Ryn (30:43):
Well, okay. And then you’ve been studying with us for quite a while now. And I wonder what was the best part or your favorite part?

Ashley (30:51):
That is such a hard question because again, all my interests are holistic. The body is not broken down into systems. There’s just so much. I love the way the program is laid out though. To put it in chunks like that, to focus on perhaps cardiovascular or digestive or whatever it may be. But it’s also interconnected. So, there’s not anything that I was like wow, this is boring. I thought everything was extremely exciting. I love the guides. I love the videos. So, for anybody who needs the written, it’s there. If anybody just likes the video and the visual, it’s there. But also, to have support all the way through to ask questions, to be part of an online community, as well as having face-to-face connections is just so wonderful. And that was something I wasn’t necessarily expecting when I first enrolled in the program. It has been amazing. And I can’t imagine finding this anywhere else. I just can’t.

Katja (32:03):
I’m glad that that is one of your favorite parts because it’s also one of my favorite parts. We really prioritize trying to get to know our students. We read everything in the community if anybody posts anything. If it’s a post, if it’s a comment, anything at all, we read it. Yeah. I try to read every single student question, even if it’s a day that Emmy is answering the questions, or that Ryn is, or that Kenton is. Emmy and Kenton help us answer student questions, and we sort of have a rotational schedule. But I try to read every question anyway because I just want to know what is everybody thinking about? And then Q&A is so awesome. And then when we get to mentorship, and we get to hang out for two hours in person every week in tiny little groups. And that’s really good. All of that stuff is the real… I mean, okay, I need to do some administrative work, and some marketing, and all these other things too. But that’s the stuff that’s the most important to me. So, I’m pretty excited that that is also so helpful for you.

Ashley (33:09):
Yeah. And of course, having real clinic work and working with people and individuals, that’s huge. So, all of everything that you both have done has been incredible.

Ryn (33:24):
Nice. Well, thank you so much.

Katja (33:25):
Thank you.

Ryn (33:26):
That’s very kind. Okay. And then based on your experiences with us, and your own self-directed study, and so on…

Katja (33:41):
Well, and also all your study before you even got to us.

Ryn (33:44):
Yeah. You know, the whole PhD situation.

Katja (33:46):
Not to forget also your experience as a professor. Maybe, I don’t know. I think I knew you were a professor, but I didn’t know it until we were pretty far down the line. And not like it’s stressful at all to be a professor for a professor.

Ryn (34:04):
Yeah. But a lot of people are out there looking for clinical training, or they’re like I want to be an herbalist. I want to do clinical herbalism. And ours isn’t the only program out there. It’s not even the only good one out there, just to be honest. But I wonder if there’s something you would suggest to other folks who are looking for clinical training. What’s important? What might they not think of in that search?

Ashley (34:33):
Sure. Regional. Much of my background was working with Southern New England plants and indigenous plants. So, to have also a program that highlights and gives me more information on how to work with the plants that grow around me was certainly an importance. But yeah, I think there was so much to a big part of this is both of you have decades of experience. It’s not like walking into an herb program with people regurgitating information. This is very different. This is very science steeped, experience steeped. There’s a lot going on here. But also too, it isn’t the boilerplate model of herbalism. This herb is used for this. That was something that I was trying to avoid. I really want to understand how plants play in the human experience. How does that look like in a clinic, an herbal clinic. And that was something that I was really going for. So, if I was choosing herb school, and they said this herb was good for this, I could get that from a book. I could get that anywhere else. So, the stuff that I have learned in this program was nothing that I could get from a book. It was real hands-on, real-world experience. And I think that’s key when you’re choosing herbalists to work with or to learn from, mentorship.

Katja (36:07):
Well, I totally agree with you there. There’s so much copy pasta out there. Just saying the same words over and over again or saying it because you heard someone else say it. But there are herbalists who are teachers, who are teaching from their own personal experience, and who don’t teach things until they have tried it for however long themselves. And I agree. To me that’s the most important part in choosing a school. That you are finding herbalists who are teaching specifically from their experience. And preferably an herbalist that you can have a relationship with and be learning from that experience. And not just a big group of…. You can go to conferences for that, you know? Yeah.

Ryn (37:01):
Conferences can be good. Yeah. Yeah. That’s real. Nice. Well, that was also some very kind words. Thank you so much.

Katja (37:07):
Yeah, thanks.

Ashley (37:11):
Well, I meant every one of them.

Herb Favorites & Other Pursuits

Ryn (37:15):
But listen, we shouldn’t let you go and end the interview until we’ve asked what’s your favorite herb? The easiest question for any herbalist to answer. What’s your one singular favorite herb that’s best for all problems in the entire universe or maybe just the one that jumps to mind today?

Ashley (37:37):
Burdock is one that definitely jumps to mind. Burdock is a root, it’s grounding. I tend to live in my head.

Ryn (37:43):
Ah.

Ashley (37:44):
I also like the taste of burdock. If I find it in my local co-op, I’ll actually prepare and saute it with carrots. So, I’ll actually eat it. And then I do work with the powder quite often. My morning coffee is a process, but a good one. I enjoy it. So, I’m putting burdock powder in there. I’ve got my cocoa. I’ve got my ghee. It’s a decaf coffee, but I love it. If I don’t wake up in the morning and have my burdock coffee, it’s just not going to be a good day. So, I’ve grown to love and crave the flavor, but it also helps me just get the day started. Helps digest all those really nourishing fats. So, I really, really just love burdock.

Katja (38:27):
That’s so awesome.

Ryn (38:29):
Nice. That’s cool.

Katja (38:31):
Okay. Well, to build on that. If you could be any plant… You’d just be like I’m done human-ing. We’ve had it., I’m going to be a plant now. If you could be any plant, who would you be and why?

Ashley (38:47):
I love thistle. I’ve always been drawn to thistle, whether I’m traveling abroad, or I’m home. Whenever I run into thistle, I’m just like whoa. Cool.

Ryn (38:57):
They do catch the attention, huh?

Katja (38:59):
Yeah.

Ashley (39:00):
It does. And it has… even bull thistle around us. But it has a growth pattern and those kind of prickly leaves. It seems sturdy. It has some spines. It’s just a little pop of color. It’s such an interesting plant to me. But also, when I start to feel weakness, I tend to really feel it in the liver. And it’s always been a great ally for me to have. So, that’s what I would go with, I think.

Ryn (39:29):
Thistle.

Katja (39:29):
I love that. I love that.

Ryn (39:33):
Nice. Thistle demands your attentiveness, you know? You can’t blunder past a thistle without seeing all of the edges that it may have.

Katja (39:43):
You can’t just grab it. You have to… Yeah.

Ryn (39:47):
So, you’re obviously more than an herbalist. You’re a professor, and you’re a mom, and you’re other things as well. But when you’re not doing herbal stuff, what are some other things you enjoy? What’s your other favorite thing to do?

Ashley (40:04):
I am obsessed. This is going to sound so dorky. But I’m obsessed with ritual and agenda books. And for a long time I’ve been, go, go, go, work, work, work. I have to remind myself to slow down and begin to pencil in times of enjoying life, enjoying things in general. So, agenda books. I’ll pencil in time to harvest, time to work with plants, time to just take a nap, you name it. Actually, I have a whole bookshelf of just books on – I don’t know if you can see this – building rituals. And I’ll just pull these out and remind myself to slow down. But agenda books too. I’ve always been fascinated with how successful people spend their time. But also too, with doing laundry. How do I make that more exciting? Just making the mundane more purposeful, you know, instead of just kind of going in and doing day in, day out without really being aware. So, that’s a big part of it and reading.

Ryn (41:08):
That’s cool. I think it is connected. A lot of times, especially for mental and emotional troubles, if I’m going to suggest somebody to work with a tincture blend, it’s not just like okay. Take two droppers of this three times a day. But my instructions will involve you’re going to make a little mini ritual for this, right? Even if it just means going into the break room, or the bathroom, or whatever you need to find a moment to yourself. And breathe in and out for a few minutes or a few breaths if that’s all the time you’ve got. Take your dose. Remember why you’re working with this herb. Remember what your projection of better health is going to look like. A couple more deep breaths. And then all right, now I go back to the world. And that change in taking it between that way versus I grab it, I squirt it, I go back to what I was doing is enormous. It makes a huge impact in how successful those herbs are for people.

Ashley (42:05):
Absolutely. Yeah.

Katja (42:08):
I also love that normally when we think about day planners, or agenda books, or whatever, it’s about how much can you cram into it and optimizing your time. And how can you make sure that not a moment is wasted. And by not a moment is wasted, of course, I’m referring to productivity, right? Because that is the standard focus of our culture. And I imagine with your background that there have been times in your past that you interfaced with day planners in that manner. And I mean, I also as well. But I love the act of intentional rebellion. Of shifting this tool out of holding you captive to productivity and into making your life more meaningful and creating space for taking care of yourself. And I think that is a super radical act that I am going to need to think about for myself.

Ashley (43:22):
And it is. It’s a big part of once you pencil in that time of enjoyment. You realize you know, it’s okay to take that time because I still have time to do A, B, and C. But also keeping it simple, so it takes that anxiety out of the relaxation part.

Ryn (43:38):
Yeah. That’s nice. It’s no fun to be okay, now’s my break time. I’m anxious about everything that’s not happening. Yeah. That’s a way to get through that. That’s cool.

Katja (43:49):
Yes. You can put your blue vervain right next to the agenda book.

Ryn (43:57):
Okay. Simple question. Tea or tincture?

Ashley (44:01):
Tea, one hundred percent.

Ryn (44:03):
That was easy for you.

Ashley (44:07):
Yeah. I love tea. It’s something too. It’s part of the mindful experience in building ritual. For me it’s easier to build a ritual around tea because it’s with me. It’s a constant reminder. It’s always in my hand for the most part. So… And I tend to get dehydrated, so it’s a good reminder to stay hydrated.

Katja (44:29):
Nice. All right, well, thinking about the blue vervain next to the day planner, I’m wondering what is your favorite herb because you like it? And what is your favorite herb because you need it? And they may not be the same herb.

Ashley (44:51):
Yeah. I have to go with cilantro. It’s another one up there with burdock as far as the plant I need on a daily basis.

Katja (45:02):
That’s awesome.

Ashley (45:03):
And I know a lot of people don’t like it. I think this is either a love or hate situation, but I love it.

Ryn (45:09):
Yeah.

Ashley (45:10):
But I’ll take a handful of fresh cilantro that I get from the grocery store. Put it in blender with coconut cream, matcha, and any other powder. Sometimes it’s ashwagandha powder. And really just make a nourishing drink. I have one of those every single day. I crave it.

Katja (45:27):
Wow. That’s awesome.

Ashley (45:28):
I just love the taste, and it gets me going. I love the cooling. It just has a refreshing taste to it. So, I’d have to go with cilantro there.

Katja (45:41):
That’s awesome.

Ryn (45:42):
Nice, yeah.

Ashley (45:43):
And then for an herb because I need it, I would say vanilla.

Ryn (45:48):
Vanilla.

Katja (45:49):
I love that.

Ashley (45:50):
More of the need for me has been a switch to more like these euphoric herbs to remind myself to enjoy more, to slow down, to just enjoy, which does not come easy to me. So, having vanilla has been a big reminder to just enjoy and savor. I also have a 16-month-old child, so I’m trying to remind myself to also savor these moments and to spend that time with her. Which again, for somebody who’s always work, work, work, vanilla has been such a great ally. Just to remind myself to take it easy and to enjoy what’s around myself.

Ryn (46:35):
Ah, that’s beautiful.

Katja (46:36):
Well, now I want tacos and ice cream.

Pesto on Everything

Ryn (46:42):
Cilantro and vanilla. Very good. Very good. So, you’re a public health expert, we’re going to say. And sometimes in public health conversations, you hear people say things like you know what? Everybody has high cholesterol in this country. We should just put statins in the water, right? And I’m not on board with that particular intervention. But if we just take that idea of, what should we just put in the water? What could we just give to everybody? What would you suggest? What do you think about herbs there?

Ashley (47:18):
I would say grocery store herbs. They don’t have to be exotic to work, but things that people have easy access to. So, dandelion greens are pretty accessible. Cilantro, if you’re like me and love cilantro. Parsley, basil, and make pesto. Put pesto on everything. Everybody wins if they have more greens.

Ryn (47:39):
This is a great idea.

Katja (47:41):
Ryn does put pesto on everything. Nearly everything.

Ashley (47:44):
Yeah. I mean, most things. And the more greens you get, the better.

Katja (47:51):
Awesome.

Ryn (47:53):
I love a good pesto. Yeah. I love it with nettle. I love it with garlic mustard, wow.

Katja (48:01):
I mean, you’re pulling the garlic mustard anyway, so you might as well eat it.

Ryn (48:06):
When you make pesto, what are your preferred nuts?

Ashley (48:10):
I use walnuts.

Ryn (48:11):
Ah, okay.

Katja (48:12):
Nice.

Ryn (48:14):
Sometime, like three or four years ago, pine nuts got about 20 times as expensive as they used to be. We haven’t had them for a minute because of that.

Katja (48:24):
Yeah. You know, I just want to put a plug out there that pesto doesn’t have to have cheese in it.

Ryn (48:30):
Oh, yeah.

Katja (48:31):
We can’t eat dairy, so our pesto doesn’t ever have cheese. And yet there is something about pesto that just feels inherently cheesy. And I think it’s the way the nuts, and the greens, and the oil somehow all…

Ryn (48:42):
I think the oily, and the salty, and yeah.

Katja (48:44):
Yeah, something. So, just for anybody saying well, that advice won’t work for me. It will. You don’t have to have cheese in your pesto.

Ashley (48:55):
Yeah. Also, if you like it a little bit more on the citrus side, doing a little bit of lemon zest just to freshen it up a little bit. Or you could also do the nutritional yeast.

Katja (49:07):
Oh yeah. That would give you that cheesy feel too, that flavor. Yeah. Also, I kind of feel like people think pesto is for fancy. But all the herbs that you mentioned are not expensive. And some of them you can just go outside and pick in your yard as long as you don’t spray your yard with weird things, or your dog doesn’t whatever. And so, it doesn’t have to be for fancy. You can have pesto anytime.

Ryn (49:36):
And we should. All right. Well, we know how to reach you, but probably all of our listeners don’t. So, give us some details. Give us some social media, some websites.

Katja (49:50):
Yeah. And before you do let me just interject here that Ashley is still in mentorship with us as she’s collecting hours towards her application to become a registered herbalist. But you also have your own practice, and people can just schedule right with you. And we still advise on our students’ private clients, on their clients that they’re working on through the school. Just anybody, you know? You need some advice, we’re here. So, just so that people know that they can just book right with you if they want to. How do they do that?

Ashley (50:31):
So, I have a website hwapothicaire, and the apothecary is spelled like the French word for apothecary. But if you did hwapothicaire, it would still pop up and direct you to my website. So, I have my website…

Ryn (50:46):
We’ll put a link in the show notes so people can click their way there.

Ashley (50:50):
Awesome. And then I also…

Katja (50:54):
Let me spell it real quick too, just in case somebody is not in a place where they can click. It’s HW. And then apothicaire, the French way, A-P-O-T-H-I-C-A-I-R-E.com.

Ashley (51:08):
Thank you. Yeah. And then my social media, same thing. It’s HW Apothicaire for Facebook and Instagram. I am more active on Instagram though.

Katja (51:20):
Where did the French influence come from?

Ashley (51:24):
My background, my heritage.

Katja (51:26):
Cool.

Ryn (51:27):
Yeah, très bien. Great. So, yeah. People will be able to find you there. They can book some sessions. They can keep you busy because you’re totally not busy enough already.

Katja (51:39):
I also want to point out that Ash writes a really great newsletter. We encourage all of our clinical students to be building their newsletters. And one way that we encourage them to do that is they put me on the newsletter mailing list. And then I write back there’s all these things that I would say to comment on this newsletter. And so, when I say that Ashley’s newsletter is great, it’s because I read her newsletter every time it goes out. So, it’s great. You should sign up for it. And yeah, you can do that at the link in the show notes or at hwapothicarie.com.

Ryn (52:15):
That’s what. All right. Any closing thoughts from you?

Ashley (52:21):
No, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you both again.

Ryn (52:24):
Yeah. Thanks for taking the time to chat with us. And I guess we’ll see you again at our next round table.

Katja (52:31):
Yeah. And at Free Clinic the first Wednesday in September. That’s coming right up, yeah. So, for all the folks listening, if you are interested in becoming a clinical herbalist, we need you. The whole country needs you. In fact, actually the whole world needs you. We do have clinical herbal students in almost every continent, on almost every continent.

Ryn (52:57):
We’re looking at you Antarctica. I know you’ve got internet down there these days.

Katja (53:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could have a student in Antarctica if you’re listening, right. So, the thing is that there’s too much work for just us and Ashley. There needs to be more of us. We cannot see all the clients that need to see herbalists. So, if all of this appeals to you, then check out our Clinical Herbalist program at commonwealthherbs.com. And all of our online courses in fact, you can see the whole catalog at online.commonwealthherbs.com.

Ryn (53:37):
That’s it. That’s it everybody. Thanks for listening. We’ll be back soon with some more Holistic Herbalism podcast for you. Until then, take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Drink some tea.

Katja (53:50):
Drink some tea.

Ryn (53:51):
And make some pesto.

Katja (53:53):
Yes. Thanks again, Ashley. Bye.