Podcast 256: Thinking Through Herb-Drug Interactions

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Sussing out herb-drug interactions is complicated! In this episode we take the example of Celexa + skullcap, and demonstrate the process of investigation we’d use to sort out whether a proposed risk is real.

We start with the Botanical Safety Handbook, because it has certain features which make it significantly better than other manuals or databases. These include the varied relevant experience and skills of the editorial team, its clarity about real vs theorized reactions, and other critical data points which are directly relevant to the herbalist’s practice.

Checking one resource isn’t sufficient, though. We also need to consider the fact that ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’, and remember that constitutional variations can significantly change the efficacy of a given herb for a particular person. Information outside of scientific studies – such as the popularity of an herb or the prevalence of a drug, as well as traditional practices with plants – can help us to orient ourselves more precisely.

For further education about herb-drug interactions:

• Herb-Drug Interactions & Herb Safety – our complete course on this subject teaches you all the ins & outs of identifying potential interactions, avoiding them, and conducting reality checks on information you encounter about these risks.
• The Botanical Safety Handbook – our #1 resource for this information.
• HHP 101: How Herbs Are Different From Drugs – a key episode of our podcast, these concepts are helpful when learning how HDI may occur.

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Episode Transcript

Ryn (00:13):
Hi, I’m Ryn. And I’m here at Commonwealth Holistic Herbalism in Boston, Massachusetts and on the internet everywhere, thanks to the power of the podcast. That’s right. So, we’re back to it. And today the subject is going to be about herb-drug interactions. It’s a complicated subject, and this is not your complete education in herb-drug interactions. But I’ve got some ideas that I think will really help you to get started in understanding this material, and some ideas about how to work with it, and how to think through the potential for an herb-drug interaction that may take place, or that you might’ve read about or heard about. And you’re wondering if it’s going to be a real concern for you or for somebody that you’re trying to help. So, that’s going to be our topic. But I also wanted to remind you about our sale. It’s July. And so every year in July and also December, we do a 20% off sale for the entire month. This is a way for us to make our material more accessible to more people. And so I want you to take us up on it. So, for the entire month of July, you can use the code hawthorn, that’s H-A-W-T-H-O-R-N, during the checkout process. And you can get 20% off everything we offer, any course, any program, anything that comes with a payment plan or a one-off. All of it is on sale. You can use the code as many times as you like. You can share it with all your friends. This is something we encourage. All right. So, I’m going to be talking today about herb-drug interactions. And if this is a piece of content or a subject that interests you in particular, then I want you to know that we do have an entire course all about herb-drug interactions and about herb safety. And that too is in the sale. So, I encourage you to check that out.

Ryn (02:06):
But we’re going to get you some basic ideas to get started with today. And before I dive in, I’m just going to remind you that we are not doctors. I’m not a doctor. We are herbalists and holistic health educators over here. The ideas discussed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice. No state or federal authority licenses herbalist in the US. So, these discussions are for educational purposes only. And we want to remind you that good health doesn’t mean the same thing for everyone. Good health doesn’t exist as one objective standard. It’s influenced by your individual needs, experiences, and goals. So, keep in mind that we’re not attempting to present one single dogmatic right way that you must adhere to. Everyone’s body is different. So, the things we’re talking about here may or may not apply directly to you. But we hope they’ll give you something to think about, some new information, some ideas to research and to experiment with further. Finding your way to better health is both your right and your own personal responsibility. This doesn’t mean you’re alone in the journey, and it doesn’t mean that you are to blame for your current state of health. But it does mean that the final decision in any course of action, whether it’s discussed on the internet or prescribed by a physician, that’s always your choice to make. All right. So, let’s make it informed.

Ryn (03:24):
You know, this content actually kind of got spurred into my mind again when I was looking at some student comments and people asking us some questions in our live Q&A sessions and in the student community that we host. And these come out pretty regularly. One example of how a question like this could sound would be you know, I’m worried about anxiety. I’ve been dealing with anxiety. It’s affecting me a lot. And I’d like to try skullcap because I’ve heard that it’s really helpful for racing thoughts and some other forms of tension in the body and in the mind. And I want to give it a try, but I’m taking Celexa, or I’m taking Prozac, or I’m taking some other antidepressant SSRI drug or something like that, right? So, they ask then is it safe for me to take skullcap with my Prozac? Is it safe for me to take chamomile with my Celexa or whatever the herb, whatever the drug might be? So, there’s actually several ways to answer this question, and I want to take you through a little tour of a few of them, right? The basic idea here is simply that sussing out the reality of herb-drug interactions can be complicated. Both because we may not have all of the information that we would like, and also because there’s often a very high degree of conservatism. And I mean that in the sense of heightening the degree of your warnings, maybe above where it really needs to be. But anyway, there’s this tendency towards extreme caution when it comes to most resources, and databases, and herb-drug interaction manual books that you can find out there. And oftentimes from my perspective people are being warned against something that is very unlikely or is not as simple as it’s being expressed in such a resource, right?

Beneficial Features of the Botanical Safety Handbook

Ryn (05:15):
So, say we take this one particular question. Skullcap and Celexa, do they play nice together? So, one way we could approach this would be to grab our copy of the Botanical Safety Handbook, second edition, from the American Herbal Products Association and the whole set of editors and collaborators who worked on that. And we could check in here. And we could say all right, well, I’m looking at skullcap. I’m looking at Celexa. I’m not seeing any particular interaction coming through there. This seems fine from that perspective as far as the folks who put this tome together say. That shouldn’t present any problems for us. And in some cases you might be like all right, well, let’s just stop with that. Or maybe you’ve got a different herb-drug interaction book. You check for this particular interaction. You don’t find it there. You’re feeling pretty good, right? So, that’s a great place to start. But it depends a lot on the quality of the resource you check, whether it’s this one, whether it’s a database, whether it’s like – I don’t know – drugs.com or something like that. The quality of information you get is going to vary pretty heavily between them. I’m really partial to the Botanical Safety Handbook, and there’s a few reasons for that, right?

Ryn (06:27):
The first one is that the editors, the advisory council, the people who all collaborated on the material inside of the book come from many different professions and relevant types of experience that touch on this subject. So, for instance, some of the folks who work on this book are clinical herbalists. Some of them are people who are in the field called pharmacognosy, which is basically about identifying active constituents in plants, and isolating them or synthesizing them, and turning them from plant into drug, right, something like that. The move from the natural forms of salicylic acid that occur in willow bark to the development of acetylsalicylic acid, better known as aspirin. That’s the work of pharmacognosy, right? So, they have some folks involved in that on the team. They have people who are practicing herbalists. Several different kinds, several different varieties of herbal practice are represented there. And they also have people who are coming from the herbal supplement industry, right? Because of course, the book is put together by the American Herbal Products Association. They’re an industry group. They’re focused on that. But it’s also relevant because that is the way most people are taking medicinal herbs: in the form of supplements that they pick up at the store or that they order online. And so it’s good to have an understanding about what’s in those supplements. How do those compare or contrast with traditional herbal preparations like teas, and tinctures, and so on? And so because they have all these different folks involved, they’re able to make really clear delineations between, say, a clinical trial, a one-off case report, or other levels of evidence from studies, and research papers, and case reports, and case series, and other things like that that each have a different level of confidence that they give us about what’s being explained there.

Ryn (08:23):
They’re also really good about differentiating between data that comes from human exposure to the plant or the supplement versus information that’s coming to us from an animal study or an in vitro study on isolated cells living in a dish. All of these are interesting sources of information for us, but they’re not all equally relevant to what you’re actually trying to figure out. Is my skullcap safe with my Celexa, right? A study on isolated neurons from a mouse in a Petri dish with skullcap extract dropped directly onto them may tell us something about how that plant works or about how some of its chemistry can interact with nerve tissue. But it may not be the exact same kind of exposure that happens in your body when you take skullcap tincture in your mouth. And some of its chemistry circulates to your brain, and some of it circulates elsewhere in your system. It may not be the exact same kind of effect that we observe there. There’s cases where it is. There’s cases where it really is not. So, being able to differentiate between the type of study and the implications of that type of study on that herb, or that extract, or that single constituent versus what we do in the real world as herbalists, right? What people are taking in the form of a supplement, or what herbalists are recommending as a tea, or a tincture, topical oil, or whatever else it might be. So, a good team to be able to do that kind of distinction is really, really helpful.

Ryn (09:52):
The BSH is also nice because there’s very direct citation of the evidence base that they’re working on, right? All of the statements in there are directly connected to a whole list of references that they provide. It’s easy to get. It’s easy to sort through and be like ah, you reference a particular study here. That’s very interesting. This one aspect of this one herb’s activity, I want to dig into that further. Your reference is right there. I can see the material that you used to draw your conclusions. And if I feel up to it, I can determine whether I think that that’s valid or not. So, that’s really handy. There are some books, there are many databases where it’s unclear where they’re drawing that claim from, a claim about this herb is unsafe with that drug, or this herb might interact with that drug, or something like that. Oftentimes it’s unclear why they’re even saying that at all. And so it’s nice when a resource does make that very simple for you to understand and to chase down further. The BSH also has nice editorial notes on each of their entries about realistic versus unrealistic expectations when you take that herb. Warnings and potentials for safety issues to emerge or herb-drug interactions to take place.

Ryn (11:04):
So, it’s very nice. And oftentimes that takes the form of, say, many resources or many authors will indicate that this herb and that drug might interact with each other. But this is based solely on pharmacological studies done in Petri dishes and isolated cell lines, and it doesn’t seem to translate directly to actual human experience in the real world, right? That’s very valuable information to have. And it can also help to enlighten you or to help you to understand better what you’re seeing in other resources. Because maybe you’re like well, I’m not going to just check one resource, even if it’s really good. I’m going to look at three or four. And if you see differing opinions in each of them, it might be hard to understand why that’s so. This book helps you to understand that a bit better than any other one that I’ve come across. There’s also in here a really nice feature where they have helpful notes on distinguishing between safety profiles for different parts of the same plant, right? So, nettle leaf versus nettle root, and each one of those might have certain interactions, and the other part of it may not. For instance, I wouldn’t expect nettle root to have interactions with the drug warfarin the same way that nettle leaf does. Because those interactions are based on vitamin K content. And vitamin K is much more concentrated in the leaves of that plant than in the roots, right? So, it’s just one example of a case where oftentimes what you get from such a resource is name of herb interacts with name of drug, right? But here, what we’re adding in is well, this part of that herb might interact with these meds. But this other part of that same herb is really unlikely to do that, or we know for sure that it does not, right? So, again, very, very helpful detail work in that range.

Ryn (12:58):
So, those features are things that I would look for in any resource, a book, a database. I don’t know. If AI chatbots actually ever get actually good at this kind of information, I would be looking for those same kinds of features, right? Because those are the things that can give us confidence and not just make us rely on whatever black box hidden secret work was done by whoever put together that resource, right? It’s transparency. It’s clarity about why they’re making these statements at all, and that’s what’s most valuable. All right. So, we can go and look at the BSH about skullcap and Celexa, and that’s fantastic. But we’re not actually off the hook yet. And maybe you don’t have that resource to work with because it is a fairly expensive item. And you can buy the book, or you can buy the online access and pay the yearly fee and whatever. But not everybody has it on hand or has the funds to adopt that. So, there’s still more that we would want to do.

Absence of Evidence is Not Evidence of Absence & Constitution Considerations

Ryn (13:56):
Even if we found a good resource like this, or we looked at several kind of lesser quality resources that don’t quite tick all my boxes there. But we’ve got some sense of what people are saying about that particular herb. Okay. So, we’re not off the hook yet for a couple of reasons. The first one is summed up by this phrase, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So, in this case, that means just because we don’t have anything that proves an interaction between skullcap and Celexa, that those interactions exist. Just because we don’t have something that proves that they’re there, it doesn’t mean that they’re not ever there, right? We may… We, humanity may have just missed it so far. Now that gets less and less likely the more an herb is studied, okay? And I’ll come back to that in a moment. But just to say that again, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. So, if we haven’t yet found, or we go, and we do a web search or a PubMed search about drug-herb interactions between Celexa and skullcap. We don’t come up with anything. That’s good news, but it’s not the end of the story, right? It may be that it hasn’t been identified, or there wasn’t the right study done, or something like that. Okay? So, we still hold back a little bit of our commitment as yet.

Ryn (15:19):
Next thing is that studies of herb safety, even very well done ones, even ones put together by a team of expert herbalists, they don’t tend to include data on constitutional variations in the study population or individual variations between the people that were being studied. And that can be really relevant to the way a person responds to an herb, right? So, as an example with skullcap, this herb is relaxant. That’s its primary, dominant, energetic feature. So, I would expect it to be more helpful for people whose depression or anxiety is manifesting with a decent amount of physical and mental tension. That’s the most common way that anxiety manifests, right? And of course, that’s why people are in the habit of saying skullcap is good for anxiety. Yeah, sure. But there are people who when they get anxious, they become a puddle. They get really loose again, mentally, physically, emotionally. They’re either sliding along with whatever is pushing them around, or they’re collapsing into a puddle on the floor. Or in other ways they’re losing all of their tone in the sense of what holds you together, right? And so for that person while skullcap can be helpful with anxiety and depression, it may not be right for their anxiety, their depression, their discomfort. And with any other herb we were going to look at, we could do that same kind of energetic assessment. That’s a basic part of our herbalist practice, right? And that’s what would steer us away from recommending that herb to that individual when it’s not a good match for them, right? But again, that doesn’t always come up in studies. That doesn’t always get included into safety information. But it can be relevant to the work that we’re trying to do. Which is not just get something that might work a little but try to get the best match possible for the person we’ve got there.

Ryn (17:15):
Okay. So, when we’re doing this work to assess a potential risk, a potential interaction, our answer isn’t yes or no. You know what I mean? It’s not yes, these things interact, or no, they don’t. It’s more like there could be an interaction if you were taking this herb at a dose like this one in a format like that one for a duration like this, and you had the drug in your life at the same times. Then we might see an interaction take place. But it’s never a binary yes or no fact. It’s a question of how much of the herb did you take? How frequently do you take it? How long do you take it? What’s your innate constitution that it’s coming into? Other factors like that shift the degree of interaction, or the degree of severity, or the clinical relevance of it for us, okay?

Ryn (18:09):
So, these considerations are tempered in a way, right? So, the consideration, one, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You know, if we look through all the scientific literature we’ve got. We look through all the different herb-drug interaction databases and manuals we have access to. We don’t see anything there. We’re feeling pretty good, but we can go broader than that, right? We can also go and look at the general safety of herbs. That there are lots and lots of people taking lots and lots of herbs all the time. And if this interaction was to take place, we think that it would be likely documented by now, right? You combine that idea with the fact that SSRI drugs or these antidepressants in particular are really commonly taken by the general population. And so when we combine those two together, we think well, that means that there’s plenty of people out there taking Celexa, taking skullcap, taking them at the same time. And that again, if there was a significant, dangerous, scary interaction, it’s likely that somebody would’ve run into it by now, right? So, the likelihood is that if there really was a dangerous interaction potential, it would already have been identified, okay? Again, it’s not taking us to a hundred percent, but we are getting beyond just what the rigorous scientific literature tells us. Because we can draw on our knowledge about the facts on the ground. The fact that this is a common prevalent herb for people to take. That it’s heavily advertised and comes up in a lot of different formulations that people grab off the shelf. And that again, a lot of people are taking antidepressants. And so it’s very, very likely that this has interacted in many, many bodies or that it has intersected in many, many bodies without causing some serious, dangerous interaction. Okay.

Ryn (20:00):
So, then the second aspect is also tempered, right? That one about how these kind of scientific pieces of information don’t include some things that we find relevant, like the energetics of the herb and the constitution of the person taking it, right? But that too is tempered here, tempered by the relative safety of this specific herb that we’re talking about, right? Skullcap has a generally benign quality to its effects. Even if it’s not appropriate for literally everyone, it’s also unlikely to be outright dangerous for anyone. Skullcap is a nicely relaxing herb. But even in the most lax, loose person out there, if you give them skullcap, you’re not going to cause their entire body to dissolve. You might just exacerbate some existing discomforts that they’re having, right? That can be more pronounced for certain individuals. Like say if they have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome going on, and there’s already an excessive degree of laxity in several joints, we don’t want to dial that up any further. It would be counterproductive. But it also wouldn’t be deadly, right? It also wouldn’t be likely to need hospitalization or other serious intervention if that was to come together in what we would regard as the wrong body. Okay?

Deducing Risk From Chemistry & Folk Tradition

Ryn (21:13):
So, some of these things are knowable to us from chemistry, right? The types of constituents in skullcap that as far as we can tell contribute to its action as a nervine sedative, and a calming agent, and a physical relaxant. Those are relatively safe types of constituent. They’re very different on our danger scale from something like powerful alkaloids. And there we’re thinking of like lobeline, and caffeine, and hyoscyamine, and cocaine, right? And all of those kinds of things that are quite powerful tend to act on the nervous system, often the central nervous system. And so they’re just more likely to trigger a potential problem then something mild, and gentle, and distributed in its activity like skullcap. Okay. So, some of that’s knowable from chemistry. Some of it’s knowable from physiology or pharmacology. Again, this herb skullcap is very unlikely to have a strong effect on drug metabolism, which is one of the major ways that herb-drug interactions occur. And we can dig deeper into all of that and say there are many different types of interaction. Some of them are what we call pharmacodynamic. And it’s about the action of the drug and the action of the herb are pointing in the same direction, so you get an additive effect. Or they’re pointing in opposite directions, so the herb is reducing the efficacy of the drug to some extent.

Ryn (22:50):
So, those are easier to predict. But also they occur in reality less often than another group, which is what we call pharmacokinetic interactions. That’s where your herb is altering the way your body absorbs, or metabolizes, or circulates, or eliminates the drug, right? And that’s where we get things like if you’re going to consume slimy marshmallow or slippery elm cold, demulcent infusions, then you want to separate that by an hour or two from the moment you take your drug. Because if you take your drug with a bunch of slime, maybe it slows down how you absorb that drug. Maybe it alters how much you absorb per minute or something like that. It can change the way the drug hits your system. Or St. John’s wort or grapefruit, where these have more direct activity on specific enzymes that are responsible for metabolizing your drug. And if you alter how fast that happens – if you speed it up, or you slow it down – that might change the kind of active dose that actually gets into your body, or how long it stays in your body, or other facets like that, right?

Ryn (23:58):
So, what we know about the chemistry of skullcap is that it doesn’t have major effects on any of those key enzymes. And we could go further. We could say all right, well tell me the specific metabolic enzymes that act on the Celexa. And then let me double and triple check and see if there’s any evidence that skullcap operates on any of those. Shorthand, no, right, at least not to our current knowledge. And so again, we’re taking some of what we know about the herb, a little bit about its chemistry, and the way that that chemistry acts on the body. And we’re assessing the likelihood of this type of interaction as being quite low here. Very, very different from St. John’s wort. Which in a body taking no pharmaceuticals, skullcap and St. John’s wort, they’re not identical, but they have some overlap in terms of reasons we might call on them. But there are way more circumstances where St. John’s wort is going to be contraindicated than skullcap is because of the way St. John’s wort can work on these enzymes that alter and metabolize your drug for you. All right. So, the skullcap here, you know, it’s not known or suspected to have that capacity to potentiate what the drug does or to inhibit what the drug does. And again, we can keep on going. We can dig in further and be like well, what does the skullcap do on the chemical level, on the receptor level? What does the Celexa do on those levels as well? Is there some potential cumulative effect or a place where their actions could collide? And, you know, we can dig through all of those very slowly and carefully to do it properly. But again, in this case as in many cases, what we’re going to find is that there’s not much reason to be anxious here, right? So, we can dig through that way.

Ryn (25:49):
So, from chemistry, from physiology, pharmacology, and then also very importantly here from tradition. Whether it’s folk tradition, whether it’s a formalized traditional medicine practice or style, these are places that we also have some relevant data, right? When we look to those sources, and we look at how they regard skullcap, we find that the herb wasn’t considered dangerous at any time in the historical practice of herbalism. And this is a period of time during which people did work regularly with quite poisonous plants, right? Working with deadly nightshade, working with aconite, things like that that we don’t tend to focus on very much in contemporary herbalism, especially when we’re teaching to beginners. But historical herbalists did work with those agents. They did that very frequently. And they understood that there was a scale of potency or danger to all the plants that they worked with. And that somebody like skullcap is on the very safe side of that scale, right? That’s knowledge that we can draw on. The difference between an herb like skullcap and an herb like deadly nightshade is really, really stark. And just as a general rule, the further towards the nightshade end of that spectrum we go, the more cautious we are, the more worried we have to be about potential drug interactions. So, skullcap is over on the safe side of that spectrum, right?

Ryn (27:16):
So, these are all different types of data and reasoning that we’re drawing on. And in this case, with this skullcap-Celexa combo, all of them point in the same direction, right? What we can understand from our knowledge of the herb, from the science about the herb, from the tradition about the herb, from a review from some trusted experts about the herb, they all point us in the same direction. So, this is really helpful for us, and that’s the kind of thing that we’re hoping to find. Sometimes you get, again, conflicting information from each different source. And so you kind of need to draw on each one, make an evaluation about which one is most relevant to the case at hand, or which one you find most convincing and compelling. Sometimes it means that we need to revise our understanding of what tradition was, or we need to revise our understanding of whether a traditional practice was actually wise or not. That can be necessary, right? But this is a process that we can walk through, and it can help us to make sure we’re not being enchanted or distracted by one particular source of info, whichever that happens to be. And that we’re trying to stand in the middle of all available sources of info and draw from each one what we require.

Assessing Interactions for a Specific Person

Ryn (28:27):
All right. So, I’m sharing this again today just as an example of that thought process we go to for a particular case. There’s a little more though, for an actual person. Here we’ve kind of been talking about it in the abstract. Celexa-skullcap, do they interact for anybody anytime, right? But for a specific case, we’re going to dig in further. We’re going to get a clinical interview going. We’re going to get their whole health history, their list of current symptoms. We’re going to make sure we have the complete list of medications, right, prescription drugs, over-the-counter meds, recreational drugs. I also want to know about supplements that they take, and any herbs that are currently in their life. All of those might be relevant to the determination that we’re going to make, right? And that’s kind of the biggest part of our questioning, but there may be some other things we ask there as well. So, there’s quite a lot of work still left to do for an actual person. For this specific individual with this particular question if we really want to answer it fully, we want to get to those levels as well. So, I don’t want any of that to be discouraging. This isn’t impossible work. This is stuff that you can absolutely learn to do, and we would love to train you up to get you to do that. But I just want to emphasize that there’s a lot going on here. And this is why we’re allergic to answering a question like does this herb interact with that drug? Answering that in a yes or no manner is something that I’m rarely if ever going to do, right? It’s always appropriate to keep these caveats in mind, keep these different types and sources of information available to you, and draw on them before you make a kind of determination like that. And to always leave some space that there could be certain circumstances in which an otherwise safe combination might become a problem, right? We want to practice as safely as we can. This is the way to serve our clients.

Ryn (30:19):
So, like I said, if you want to get further into this material, I think that’s fantastic. And I think a great place to do that is in our course called Herb-Drug Interactions & Herb Safety. That’s a part of our Clinical Herbalist program, but you can pick it up as a one-off. In general it’s good to have at least a little bit of herbal training before you dive into that material. Learning a little bit about individual herbs, about body systems, a touch of phytochemistry here and there, that can really help. But if you’ve been a long-time or even a medium-time listener to this podcast, I think that you could get a lot out of that course. And if you’d rather just start right at the beginning, then I want to make it clear that we do address real, significant safety concerns in every course that we teach. So, from our very beginning Materia Medica course, if we’re talking about St. John’s wort, you can bet we’re going to talk about its potential for herb-drug interactions. If we’re talking about uva-ursi, you can bet you’re going to hear us talk about safe duration of time that you can be taking uva-ursi before you should have a break. And any other material like that that’s relevant to the herb under discussion in the Materia Medica course or in one of the body systems course, like the Cardiovascular System course, we’ll talk about garlic as a fantastic plant. We’ll also mention that it can thin the blood. And if you’ve got surgery coming up, you should dial it down. So, this is info that we weave into all of our course material, wherever it’s required.

Ryn (31:46):
And we don’t kind of save all of it for when you’re ready for clinical training. We try to give it to you piece by piece as you go along, so you can develop your comfort, your familiarity with these concepts. And you can expand them as you need to match your current skill and your current scope of practice. All right. So again, if you want to dig into that course, you can use our sale code for it. The code is hawthorn, H-A-W-T-H-O-R-N. And you can use that during checkout for the entire month of July and get 20% off every course we offer. Our Family Herbalist program, which is the best place to begin. The Community Herbalist, the Clinical Herbalist program, everything we’ve got 20% off with hawthorn for this month. All right. That’s it for today. I’ve got a couple of links in the show notes for you and a reminder, of course, about the sale. But we’ll have some more Holistic Herbalism podcast for you soon. Until then take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Drink some tea and double check your safety references. We’ll be again soon. Good luck.