Podcast 280: Don’t Choose Herbs “for” a Diagnosis – Do This Instead

When we’re choosing herbs to help someone, knowing their medical diagnosis isn’t enough: we don’t choose herbs for a diagnosis. As herbalists, we actually need more information! A medical diagnosis is a specialized vocabulary which creates a shorthand so that people who already know what it means, how it happens, and how to fix it, can speak more efficiently about (whatever it is). It’s not an objective truth, though: it’s a descriptive label that is useful in a specialized context. Herbalism is a different context.

That’s why it’s not very practical to try to look up something like “herbs for neuropathy caused by a herniated cervical disc” – because we can’t actually make that list without leaving gaps large enough to drive a truck through. The name of the problem isn’t enough information for us to choose herbs, we still have to get more data! We need to understand what the diagnostic term means in absolute terms, and we need to know what the person’s experience of that diagnosis is (because not everyone with a certain label has the same experience), and then we need to figure out what herbs or what series of herbs have the actions we need to work toward a resolution.

So here’s how we think that through – taking this example, and asking: what does “neuropathy caused by a herniated cervical disc” mean for an herbalist? Where exactly can we dig into that to make an impact? What other information do we need to allow us to pick the right herbs to support this person?

This process for thinking everything through will work for any problem! It’s all in this episode.

This example came up in one of our live Q&A sessions last week. Those are a perk enjoyed by every one of our students – whether they’re enrolled in a full program like Family Herbalist or Community Herbalist, a single course like Neurological & Emotional Health, or even one of our free short courses such as Herbal Study Tips. Anyone who’s learning from us can ask us questions directly at these sessions, twice a week. And if you can’t make it live, we keep an archive – there are more than 500 archived Q&A sessions for you to look through! (Don’t worry, there’s a searchable index so you can find what you’re interested in.)

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Episode Transcript

Katja (00:00):
Hi, I’m Katja here at Commonwealth Holistic Herbalism in Boston, Massachusetts. Today on the podcast I want to share with you a clip from one of our live Q&A sessions last week. A student was asking where to find a list of herbs for a specific medical diagnosis. And I was explaining that it doesn’t really work that way. Medical diagnoses are specialized vocabulary that creates a shorthand so that people who already know what it means, how it happens, and how to fix it can speak more efficiently about it, whatever it is, right? So, everybody in a medical environment who is talking about multiple sclerosis, for example, the word multiple sclerosis does not contain all of the information that is necessary to know in order to talk about multiple sclerosis. It’s a label that allows people who already have that information to talk about the problem so that they don’t have to every single time list out every single symptom and all the different details, right? It just makes communication a lot easier in a specialized context, in this case, in medical interactions, right? That’s not bad. It’s not good either. It just is. It’s just a specialized language. It’s a descriptive label. It’s not an objective truth. It is a way of describing a thing that is real, right? But it itself, the label itself, is not what is real. The experience that the person is having is what is real.

Katja (02:02):
So, in order for us to choose herbs that are going to work for a person, that are going to help a person to feel better, improve, whatever, we need to do some translation. We can’t just start with the medical. Well, often we do start with the medical diagnosis. But we can’t start our work there, because that’s not enough for us as herbalists to translate everything into the herbal environment. We need to understand, first off, what does that diagnostic term mean in absolute terms, right? Like when two doctors are talking about multiple sclerosis, whatever it is, what do they understand when they are saying that to each other? We have to know that. And that is because a diagnostic label covers a list of symptoms, but not every symptom is required to achieve that diagnostic label, right? So, some people may have these five symptoms out of 10, and some people may have those five symptoms out of 10. And maybe only two overlap between these two people that we’re imagining. And so it’s really important for us as herbalists to understand not just what the diagnosis means when people in the medical community use that term, but also what the specific experience of the person we are working with is having of that diagnosis. All right. So, then once we understand what is really going on here, we first need to think about what actions can we take to have an impact? And of those actions that we could take, which ones do we want to take? Maybe not everything is on the table, right? Maybe because of costs some of the actions that we have available to us are actually going to be ruled out, or because somebody doesn’t like the flavor, or because of various things. So, we have to think about what can I do to make an impact for this person? And then what do we want to do to of that? Like what subset of that do we want to do? And at that point, we can start to think about which herbs or series of herbs is going to be relevant for this person, right?

Katja (04:23):
This whole process takes some practice, so that’s what I want to talk about today. But before I get too much further into it, because I’m very excited, and I’m just launching right in, I do need to do the reclaimer. And that’s just where I remind you that I am not a doctor, I’m an herbalist and a holistic health educator. The ideas discussed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice. No state or federal authority licenses herbalists in the United States. So, these discussions are for educational purposes only. We want to remind you that good health doesn’t mean the same thing for everyone. Good health doesn’t exist as an objective standard. It’s influenced by your individual needs, experiences and goals. So, keep in mind that we are not trying to present a single, dogmatic right way that you, or everyone, or anyone should adhere to. Everybody’s body is different. So, the things that we’re talking about may or may not actually apply directly to you. But we hope that they’ll give you some new information to think about and some ideas to research and experiment with further. Finding your way to better health is both your right and your own personal responsibility, which does not mean that you’re alone on the journey or that you are to blame for your current state of health. But it does mean that the final decision when you are considering any course of action, whether it’s discussed on the internet or prescribed by a physician, that’s always your choice to make.

Herbalists as Weavers

Katja (05:58):
Okay. So, now that I got that out of the way, the clip that I’m going to share next is an exchange from one of our live Q&A sessions. We have live Q&A sessions twice every week for US students, and then special different times twice a month for students in various other time zones. And then we have specialized live Q&A sessions for the advanced students and stuff like that. Okay, so my point is that we have a lot of live sessions where students have the opportunity to ask us questions directly. And then we work together through the answer until they get to a place where they feel confident and really understand where we want to be going. And also where we feel confident. You know, it’s good to go back and forth on the question to make sure that we really understand what they’re asking as well, so that we get them the information that they need. We love live Q&A because it is an opportunity for us to get to know our students and really to make sure that everybody is getting what they need. Learning online is great in terms of convenience, and being able to do things at your own pace and on your own time, and if you learn best in the morning, or if you learn best at night or whatever else. Our program is self-paced, so it’s really easy for people to fit it into their schedule. But the drawback of online learning is that unless the school is working really hard to have a direct relationship with students, then it can just be a very one-way sort of situation, and we really don’t want that.

Katja (07:44):
So, we have these live Q&A sessions so that students have the opportunity to build those relationships, and they don’t have to feel like they’re alone trying to figure this stuff out for themselves. So, the clip that I’m going to share, the question was the student was working on the Neurological & Emotional Health course. And in that course there is a chapter about neuropathy. But they were looking specifically for help with neuropathy caused by a herniated cervical disc. And there’s not a chapter on that, partially because there just doesn’t need to be. We are going to weave things together, weave threads together. And that’s what we are always doing as herbalists, right? Because in nature there are no herbs out there saying I am the herb for neuropathy, but only when it’s caused by a herniated cervical disc. I’m not going to help with any other kind of neuropathy at all. In fact, there aren’t actually herbs out there saying I can help with neuropathy. Because neuropathy is, again, it’s from that specialized language. So, there are herbs out there who can help with making sure that blood is circulating and lymph is circulating so that all the cells and especially the nerve cells are being nourished and also having the trash removed, right? There are herbs that will help improve the communication of nerves, one to the other, and even herbs that help to build strong and healthy nerve cells.

Katja (09:32):
And so we can take all these different kinds of herbs and figure out which of these apply to a situation that is neuropathy by breaking down what is neuropathy. And so what is the problem and then what is the resolution that needs to happen, right? But then when we’re looking at something a little more specific – neuropathy caused by herniated cervical disc – then we need to think okay. If we’re going to go with the weaving analogy, our fabric is going to have some stripes here, right? Because we’re going to weave together some stuff about neuropathy. We’re going to weave together some stuff about herniated cervical discs. And ultimately we’re going to come up with a complete picture of what is going on for the person, where we can make an impact, and then what herbs we’re going to work with to do that for them, right?

A Q&A Clip as Example: Neuropathy

Katja (10:30):
All right, so let’s listen to the clip, and then I’ll be back to talk about it. I’ve been finishing up the Neurological & Emotional Health course. I haven’t come across herbs to support neuropathy caused by herniated cervical discs. Herbal support for that kind of neuropathy specifically at night to help me sleep without pain waking me up. Would this be a place for wild lettuce and kava? Okay, listen you guys. When we say neuropathy caused by herniated cervical discs, that isn’t enough information actually. So, if we break that down, and we say okay, well what is a herniated cervical disc? So first off, what’s a disc? A disc is a fluid-filled sack that is a cushion in between each vertebrae. And that way no matter how we bend and flex our spine, we never get bone-on-bone creating friction. Bone-on-bone is bad. So, everywhere throughout the body we have connective tissue or whatever – collagen, and cartilage, and all kinds of stuff – that makes sure that the bones are never grinding on each other. And so the disc, a little cushion, it’s kind of like a little marshmallow. Or if you’ve ever been to a Japanese grocery store and had mochi, those little bean cakes, and they usually have some sort of filling inside them. That’s like a disc in your in between. I always think of that when I have one of those. Okay, so the purpose of this disc is to cushion the movement of the vertebrae.

Katja (12:19):
Okay. So cervical, what does that mean? It’s in your neck. This is the cervical spine. You might hear the word cervical and think cervix. They’re two different… It’s just unfortunately named, you know? They’re different. So, the cervical spine in the neck. Okay, what does herniated mean? It means there has been a tear. There has been poking through-ness, right? So, the gel inside, the fluidy stuff inside is not like water. It’s like gel. And so if there is a tear in the disc, then some of that fluid can come out. And it doesn’t really have anywhere to go, and often it presses on a nerve. And that can cause pain, or it can cause numbness, or it can cause all kinds of different symptoms actually. Sort of what’s this? Like buzzing in and out with your nerves. Okay, if you’re at home saying oh Katja, here’s the medical word for that. Stop. We don’t want the medical word. Yes, we should learn them because that makes us educated, and education is good. It’s good for us to understand what people are saying when they talk to us. But for us it is better to use plain speech. Because when we work with other people, it helps them describe what’s happening to them better. And it helps them understand when we describe to them what’s going on in their body. Okay.

Katja (13:57):
All right. So, what’s going on here is that one of the cushions in the neck has a tear and is squishing out some fluid that is interfering with a nerve. And then what’s neuropathy? That is something going wrong with the nerves, right? Okay. So, generally neuropathy is a numbness with the nerves. All right. Although you can also get burning and pain as well. So, the first thing that we would ask this person is, is it burning, is it pain, is it numbness? Just to complete our information. Although it is not thoroughly necessary because all of those symptoms are kind of imaginary. And I’m not saying the person is imagining them. I’m saying that when that nerve gets pushed on, further down the line the nerves don’t know how to interpret that signal, and so they’re doing the best they can. And sometimes you feel pain or burning, but nothing painful has happened, and nothing is burning. It’s just that the nerves don’t know what message to send. And so they’re picking a message and saying something is wrong, and I’m trying to communicate that. Okay?

Causes of Neuropathy & Herniated Discs

Katja (15:29):
So, one other thing that’s really important here to think about is that common causes of neuropathy include poor circulation. Especially when we’re talking about diabetic neuropathy or really any kind of neuropathy, especially in the lower part of the body for a person who’s very sedentary. Okay, poor circulation. Why? Because the nerve cells are not receiving nutrition. So, you know how when you cross your legs, your leg goes to sleep. Or if you sit on your foot, whatever, then your foot falls asleep. That is happening because you are not letting, you sitting on it is obstructing the flow of blood. So, literally those cells are running out of air. They’re running out of oxygen, and they’re kind of like passing out because they don’t have anything to breathe. And okay, that’s a little bit of a funny way to say it, but it’s also totally true. They’re not getting fresh oxygen.

Katja (16:43):
All right. So, when we think about caused by a herniated cervical disc. If we don’t interrogate this further, if we don’t think about what’s going on, then we will never say to that person, tell me about your tension levels in your neck and in your upper back. And we won’t say to this person tell me about your movement habits. Because you can absolutely be sedentary in the upper part of your body. Especially today where people are often on computers or on their devices, and that causes this thing with the neck going forward. When I do this, I am cutting off the flow of blood so that not everything is moving the way that it should in between my body and my head. Ow, that hurts. And also, go ahead and do it. Like really exaggerate it. Okay, not enough to hurt yourself though. And you can feel weird pressure happening in between the bones that is pressing on the discs.

Katja (17:50):
So, when we think that it’s caused by a herniated cervical disc, okay, well now we have to say well how’d you get a hernia there? Well, okay, maybe the person had a car accident, and there was whiplash, right? And so we ask that, and they’ll tell us. But also yeah, maybe it is they have a desk job on a computer, and so eight hours a day they are sitting here like this. And that’s how they pay their bills. So, they have to do this computer job. But if we just look for an herb that will fix neuropathy caused by herniated cervical discs, we will not actually fix the problem. And if the problem was whiplash, okay, well the whiplash happened. It’s not going to happen again hopefully. So, we just need to recover from it. But if the problem is the way that they’re sitting at their computer, no amount of herbs that we give them is going to fix the pain or the numbness that they’re experiencing because they haven’t changed the behavior. They’re continuing to squash those discs. So okay, now also to think about the juice, the gel that has squeezed out of that disc, sometimes it’s a very small amount. And eventually the body takes care of, it takes time.

Katja (19:15):
But sometimes it’s a large amount, and there are people, actually my mom had this situation, where they have to have that removed surgically. And it’s important to know that. Because if you are working with a person who is that person, like so much of the gel has squeezed out that the body cannot recover it. Then again, no matter what herbs you work with, it isn’t going to fix the problem because the problem is too large to fix without surgical intervention. If you don’t know that, you’ll just keep trying and trying, or you’ll get really frustrated. But if you do know that, then you’ll say okay. Have you had an x-ray or any kind of imaging that would show how big the herniation is? Do you have any data on that from your diagnosing doctor? And that is going to help you know how should you approach this. If it’s a huge amount of gel, I mean, you can try with herbs. But you’re probably better off to say oh, it’s that much, and they’ve told you that you need surgery? Maybe that is the right answer, and then we can help restore and repair afterwards. Sometimes as herbalists it’s our job to tell people hey, the doctor wasn’t wrong. You should do what they said, right? Sometimes that is actually the best way to serve somebody and to help them to heal and recover.

How to Support the Body

Katja (20:50):
Okay, well let’s assume that that is not the case. Let’s assume that it’s just a tiny little bit. So, now we think about okay, what do we need to have happen? And now I’m going to pause. And everybody go ahead and think about what needs to happen here. What job does the body need to do to take care of this problem? Because when we figure out what that job is, then we can find the herbs that facilitate that work. So, let’s just all think for like 90 seconds, what work needs to happen to get rid of that gel?

Student (21:31):
Would this be a place for astringent?

Katja (21:35):
Would it? What kind of job are you trying to do with an astringent?

Student (21:39):
Maybe to like suck it back in?

Katja (21:43):
It’s probably not going to suck back in.

Student (21:45):
Get dried up?

Katja (21:46):
If it dries up, we go from squishy gel to something hard. And then that’s going to be even more difficult to break up. Once something gets hard, that’s hard. And it’s going to push harder, like push more solidly on the nerve when it becomes hard. Plus, this person must have tension in their neck. There’s really no way for this to happen without tension. So, whether it’s whiplash, or whether it is their posture at work, or whatever else, there’s tension there. And so although your idea about astringents makes sense. I see how you got there, right? Because there’s fluid, and that fluid shouldn’t be there. Let’s get rid of it, let’s suck it away. We have to think about where is it going to go. And if it dries out, is it just going to be… You know how when you have a lot of snot? And then it dries out, and you get a really hard booger, and it hurts in your nose? If you have kids in the room, I don’t know what to tell you. You can just tell them that we’re learning about boogers tonight. But you know what I’m talking about? Like while it was still drippy snot, you could blow it out of your nose. But once you get that really hard booger, yeah, you still have to blow it out of your nose, but it like hurts. And then you are trying to get it out with the handkerchief, and it feels like it’s scraping on the inside of your nose, right? Okay, so we can think about that, and that’s such a good example. If you’re like I don’t know, maybe an astringent. And then think about well, where can I imagine that happening? Oh okay, well what about snot? Snot is fluid. If I dry that up, then what happens? Either it gets stuck in the sinuses, or I get sharp boogers. Okay, so that kind of an exercise can help you to think. Because you might be like well, I don’t really know what goes on with a disc because I can’t see it. So, if you think about something that you can see, that helps. Okay. So, we’re not going to do astringents, even though it was logical for you to think about that. But we thought it through, and we said no, no, no. I don’t think that’s a good idea. All right, what other suggestions do we have here?

Katja (24:15):
We have Cindy saying move the fluid. Casey also something that supports lymphatic flow. Cassie is saying thinking about circulatory stimulation to get blood flow to the area and lymphatic to help move the stagnant fluid away. Cindy saying maybe also relaxants as well to facilitate the lymphatic and circulatory stimulants. You guys, you got it. That is the answer. Move the lymph, move the blood, and yes, put some relaxants in there for sure. And we can do this topically. We can do it internally. And we should do it a lot, like really regularly. And then the other thing that we need to do is we’ve got to go back to evaluating what caused this in the first place. And if it wasn’t whiplash from a car accident, or a subway accident, or wherever they got whiplash, but it is in fact something from their daily life, like repetitive stress kind of injury. Then we also need to talk to them about changing that and helping them to build in cues. Like whether it’s a chair that goes all the way up to their head, and so they feel the head against the chair. Or there is a device, it’s called Upright GO. And it is this little thing that buzzes. It’s like on a necklace, but the necklace is backwards. And it has a sensor in it that tells when you’re starting to slouch, and it buzzes just like a cell phone. It buzzes against the back of your neck to remind you oh, I’m slouching. Right? Because you know, if you have that habit, you don’t even always know that it’s happening.

Katja (26:04):
And I need to say that as I’m saying all this stuff, oh yeah, I slouch all the time. You watch the videos, you know that I slouch. And so none of this is a judgment, this is just our culture. Our culture involves us sitting like this a lot, or like this, or like this, right? And so we have to spend a lot of effort doing the counteraction. And so I love the kind of solution where there’s something that will tell you oh hey, you’re starting to slouch. Oh right, okay, I can sit up. Oh you’re starting to slouch. Oh, I can sit up. It’s just like it helps you to deal with the problem. And so while we are trying to help dissolve the gel and move it out, the body’s already working on that. That’s what the lymphatic system is for. But we are helping the lymphatic system to move more strongly in that direction. And we’re relaxing the muscles so that everything can flow better, and we are changing the habit so that we don’t continue to create the problem.

Breaking Down Diagnoses & Factoring in the Individual

Katja (27:19):
Okay. Wow. I don’t know when I started talking about this, but it certainly was like 15 or 20 minutes ago. And all that for just something that medically we say neuropathy caused by herniated cervical discs. Remember medical diagnoses are shorthand. The purpose of a medical diagnosis is to quickly communicate information between two people who understand what they are talking about. And so two doctors, when they say herniated cervical disc, they already have a very clear picture of what that is and what can cause it. But we don’t always, like if you’re just a regular person, you don’t necessarily have all that because you don’t have that training. You have other training so that you can do your job, but you don’t necessarily have that training. And so that’s why it’s so important for us when we see medical words. It’s not like they’re wrong or bad. They are a language. They’re a specialized language, and it is useful to learn it. But when we want to then do work as herbalists, we need to break the whole thing down and think about it in our terms so that we understand the actions that we are looking for, and we can find the herbs who do that action.

Katja (28:47):
Okay. So, I hope that process made sense for you, and that the discussion helped you think about how you would think about whatever kinds of problem. It doesn’t have to be neuropathy from a herniated cervical disc. That same process could be used for any problem that you’re trying to consider. So, you can consider that conversation a template that you can follow whenever you’re working on a health problem that you are not actually sure how to approach it. And I also want to make some notes about the conclusion to this question because that discussion is not the end of the story, right? I never really in that discussion, we never really got information about the person experiencing this problem. But if I were really working with that person, then I would need to be thinking about some additional things. And I want to list them here for you so that you can add them to this like template way of thinking, right?

Katja (29:53):
So, for example, many herbs that stimulate lymphatic function end up having a drying effect. And that’s unlikely to be a problem for a person with a body like mine. I have a damp and stagnant constitution. So, what that means is that my body holds on to water and has a tendency towards water retention and even in extreme times just a little bit of edema. But puffiness at any rate, right? And so in my body, if I’m going to work with a bunch of herbs that stimulate lymphatic function, I don’t really need to worry about that drying effect. For me that actually would probably be fairly comforting. And actually as a secret or not a secret at all, I work with lymphatic stimulants almost every day because that is comfortable for my body. It is really helpful for me to have herbs that are reminding my body that stagnation is not actually the answer. That we need to keep all the fluids flowing. But if this person with this neuropathy had a really dry constitution, and often they felt a little dehydrated, then building a formula for them that focused on lymphatic function could create some discomfort in their body. Because they’re already dry, and most of these herbs are going to end up creating dryness as well. So, if that was the case, then I would need to compensate for that with some moistening herbs. It’s fine to work with lymphatic stimulants even in a person who’s dry. We just need to make sure that we don’t leave it at the dryness. That we put moisture back into the system.

Katja (31:53):
Because if we are trying to move fluids in a very dry person, this is like when your sinuses are congested and dried out at the same time. You know what I mean? It’s like you can’t blow your nose. It’s all stuffed up in there and also totally dried up like paste or concrete, and it won’t come out. So, if we are trying to move fluids in a dry situation, we may need to add some moistening herbs just to get enough moisture in there so that we can move anything at all. Or they might not be that extreme. They might not be that dry, but the herbs that we give them could create that level of dryness. And so we want to be putting in those moistening herbs so that we don’t create that situation. Or they might have a body like mine, and it wouldn’t be a problem, right? But so this is why the person that we’re working with, we can’t know exactly what herbs we’re going to choose until we know the person that we’re working with. Because we have to find out okay, well these are the ideas I have. Oh, but you’re really dry, so I need to add moistening actions to my ideas, right?

Additional Adjustments for Personal Energetics

Katja (33:16):
All right, let’s have some other adjustments that I might make. I would need to take into consideration whether this person runs hot or cold when I’m choosing relaxants. We talked about relaxants in that discussion. And so for example, let’s say this person is in perimenopause, and they are prone to frequent and uncomfortable hot flashes. Well, ginger is probably not going to be the best choice for trying to relax the area and certainly not if we’re going to do that internally, right? Because ginger is going to do that relaxation by adding heat into the area, and this person probably does not want any heat added, right? So, I would be better off choosing an herb like skullcap, which has a relaxing effect but is cooling overall. It doesn’t bring any heat into the system. And so for that person with hot flashes, they would probably appreciate skullcap way more than they would enjoy working with ginger. But if this person typically feels really cold, or if they work in an office where the air conditioner is always on, and it’s like too cold. Then that in itself, that coldness is increasing the amount of tension that’s happening. Because when we’re cold we tense up. We shiver. We kind of huddle ourselves together. And that reaction just to being cold, especially since we’re talking about a problem in the cervical spine. And that area is where we also are hunching when we’re cold, right? So, in that case, in order to create relaxation in those muscles, we need to warm them up. We could give them all the skullcap in the world, but it still probably wouldn’t relax the area because it doesn’t address the reality that they are cold, right? Okay.

Katja (35:30):
So, there’s certainly more adjustments that I would make, but those are two really good examples that would get you thinking about what other things do I need to take into account when I get to the point of actually choosing the herbs I want to work with, right? Okay, well if this kind of herb nerding out is right up your alley, then you should come learn with us. You might like the Neurological & Emotional Health course, which covers all kinds of nerve stuff, including general neuropathy but not herniated cervical disc neuropathy. But that’s okay because now you know how to think through that. And that’s going to be true in all of our courses. We do cover a lot of different health problems that people are familiar with. And we break them down into these kinds of patterns so that you can build up confidence in doing this exercise. That way when you come across something that you haven’t studied, you can still build your approach to that problem from the ground up by going through this process. By figuring out what is this person experiencing, like what does the diagnosis mean? Yes, but then what are they experiencing? What actions could I take to impact that in a beneficial way? And then of those actions, what am I going to actually do, right? All right, so all of our courses also come with access to our twice a week live Q&A sessions, and this is what they’re like. We work through every question you have up close and personal. And that way when you are working on the courses, you also have the live support so that you know that you’re building your skills, and that your skills work, and that you are going in the right direction. You don’t have to just be like, well, I think I got it, I’m not really sure. You can know for sure because we are working with you the whole way.

Katja (37:29):
All right, so next week Ryn is going to be talking about accessible herbalism and specifically about finding affordable analogs for expensive herbs. You know, some herbs cost more. But if you can find an analog or a pair of herbs that will have the same action. And the pair of herbs still is more affordable – or more accessible in your area because it grows wild or whatever – than that one expensive herb, you can do the same work for less money. So, this is a really important skill for any herbalist. First off, because you-yourself and me-myself, we do not have unlimited budgets, right? But then also if you work with people in your community or professionally as a clinical herbalist, you’re going to have people with all kinds of budgets. Some people can afford the more expensive herbs, and other people don’t have the budget for that. So, the more that you can be flexible, so that you can get the same work done with multiple different approaches, then the more that you’ll be able to serve your community. Until then, this is the part where Ryn would say take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Drink some tea. And hopefully I’ll see you soon at a live Q&A session. Bye-Bye.